Natural affinity vs. summoning sickness

[Cannibal]

i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.

can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?

i'll copy the stalking stones ruling (taken directly from the Wizards
MTG Homepage) and you tell me...

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q: I play Stalking Stones on my turn, pay 6 mana and turn it into a 3/3
artifact creature. It resolves. Stalking Stones says it's still a land.
Can I attack? Can I tap it for mana?

A: You can¹t attack with it or tap it for mana if it¹s a creature and
you haven¹t controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn.
All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected
by it. You can usually tap the Stones the same turn as you played it,
but once it¹s turned into a creature, you are unable to use any of its
activated abilities with the tap symbol if it has summoning sickness.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

now... unless i read that wrong it seems to imply that Natural Affinity
is intended to be used as a defensive card unless you can get around
the summoning sickness for your creatures (mass hysteria).

-Cannibal-

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by Cannibal
i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.
can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?

Only the ones that have been under your control since the start of your
turn can attack.

212.3d A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol in its
activation cost can't be played unless the creature has been under its
controller's control since the start of his or her most recent turn. A
creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control
since the start of his or her most recent turn. This rule is informally
called the "summoning sickness" rule. Ignore this rule for creatures
with haste (see rule 502.5).

Post by Cannibal
i'll copy the stalking stones ruling (taken directly from the Wizards
MTG Homepage) and you tell me...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I play Stalking Stones on my turn, pay 6 mana and turn it into a 3/3
artifact creature. It resolves. Stalking Stones says it's still a land.
Can I attack? Can I tap it for mana?
A: You can't attack with it or tap it for mana if it's a creature and
you haven't controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn.
All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected
by it. You can usually tap the Stones the same turn as you played it,
but once it's turned into a creature, you are unable to use any of its
activated abilities with the tap symbol if it has summoning sickness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right. The turn it came into play, you can't attack with it, same as
any other creature. Whether it was a creature when it entered play is
irrelevant.

Post by Cannibal
now... unless i read that wrong it seems to imply that Natural Affinity
is intended to be used as a defensive card unless you can get around
the summoning sickness for your creatures (mass hysteria).

Natural Affinity
{2}{G}
Instant
Until end of turn, all lands become 2/2 creatures that are still lands.

Since you can play only one land per turn, it would be unusual for more
than one of your lands to be affected by the condition formerly known as
"summoning sickness". If they've been under your control since you
started your turn, they are usable for attacking as soon as Natural
Affinity resolves.

Summoning Sickness (Informal)
The term "summoning sickness" is an informal term which describes a
creature's inability to attack or to use activated abilities that
include the tap symbol when it has come under a player's control since
the beginning of that player's most recent turn. See rule 212.3d. See
also Haste.

Rule 212.3d cares how long a given permanent has been play under your
control. It cares whether the permanent is currently a creature. It
does NOT care how long the permanent has been a creature.

[Keith Piddington]

Daniel W. Johnson (***@iquest.net) wrote:

: 212.3d A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol in its
: activation cost can't be played unless the creature has been under its
: controller's control since the start of his or her most recent turn. A
: creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control
: since the start of his or her most recent turn. This rule is informally
: called the "summoning sickness" rule. Ignore this rule for creatures
: with haste (see rule 502.5).
[snip...]
: Rule 212.3d cares how long a given permanent has been play under your
: control. It cares whether the permanent is currently a creature. It
: does NOT care how long the permanent has been a creature.

It is easy to see how this can be misinterpreted to imply the permanent
has to have been under its controller's control *as a creature* since the
start of controller's turn. Most players know better, of course, but in
the interests of pickiness perhaps 212.3d needs an added clause to clear
this up...?


Keith

[Andy Jakcsy]

Cannibal sez:

<<

Post by Cannibal
i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.
can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?
i'll copy the stalking stones ruling (taken directly from the Wizards
MTG Homepage) and you tell me...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I play Stalking Stones on my turn, pay 6 mana and turn it into a 3/3
artifact creature. It resolves. Stalking Stones says it's still a land.
Can I attack? Can I tap it for mana?
A: You can¹t attack with it or tap it for mana if it¹s a creature and
you haven¹t controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn.
All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected
by it. You can usually tap the Stones the same turn as you played it,
but once it¹s turned into a creature, you are unable to use any of its
activated abilities with the tap symbol if it has summoning sickness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
now... unless i read that wrong it seems to imply that Natural Affinity
is intended to be used as a defensive card unless you can get around
the summoning sickness for your creatures (mass hysteria).

One thing you likely missed is that the player is trying to play Stalking
Stones, turn it into a creature, and attack with it, ALL IN THE SAME TURN.
Which he can't do, because the Stalking Stones has summoning sickness, NOT
because it got turned into a creature, but BECAUSE IT CAME INTO PLAY THIS
TURN*. That's the ONLY way for it to have summoning sickness...if it CAME INTO
PLAY THIS TURN*.

As you can tell, this is a frequently asked question about man-lands and
summoning sickness...

Anyway, to answer your actual question, sure, you can attack with Nat.
Affinitied lands, AS LONG AS THEY DIDN'T COME INTO PLAY THIS TURN*.

*Now David DeLaney will say that technically, it has summoning sickness if it
hasn't been under your control continuously since the beginning of your latest
turn, but this is the simplest in which I could explain the summoning sickness
effect.

----
"Boy, you left wing liberal socialists sure have tunnel vision."
"You show a very right-wing bias which casts a shadow on any attempt at truth
seeking."
--Excerpts of comments to snopes.com, an urban legends website

[David DeLaney]

Post by Andy Jakcsy
*Now David DeLaney will say that technically, it has summoning sickness if it
hasn't been under your control continuously since the beginning of your latest
turn, but this is the simplest in which I could explain the summoning sickness
effect.

Well, you did say it for me, so I don't have to. Over the years my
explanation has had the corners worn off, until it's simplified to:

1) Everything gets 'sick' as it comes into play, or if it changes controllers
in play.
2) Things stop being 'sick' as their current controller's turn starts.
3) Only creatures care whether they are currently 'sick' or not.

and the addition for phasing, which is an exception to virtually everything:

4) Things that phase in phase in as though they weren't 'sick'.

(People who haven't encountered that part before may amuse themselves figuring
out why it's needed...)

Dave

[Jasper Overman]

Post by Cannibal
i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.
can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?
i'll copy the stalking stones ruling (taken directly from the Wizards
MTG Homepage) and you tell me...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I play Stalking Stones on my turn, pay 6 mana and turn it into a 3/3
artifact creature. It resolves. Stalking Stones says it's still a land.
Can I attack? Can I tap it for mana?
A: You can¹t attack with it or tap it for mana if it¹s a creature and
you haven¹t controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn.
All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected
by it. You can usually tap the Stones the same turn as you played it,
but once it¹s turned into a creature, you are unable to use any of its
activated abilities with the tap symbol if it has summoning sickness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
now... unless i read that wrong it seems to imply that Natural Affinity
is intended to be used as a defensive card unless you can get around
the summoning sickness for your creatures (mass hysteria).

You read it wrong, but I admit it's written poorly to begin with. All
creatures, including lands-turned-into-creatures are affected by summoning
sickness. But, summoning sickness cares for when a permanent came into play,
not when it turned into a creature. If you play a Stalking Stones, you can
tap it for mana. If you tap 6 lands for mana, play a Stalking Stones, and
turn it into a creature, it's summon-sick. If you played a Stalking Stones
several turns ago, pay 6 mana, turn it into a creature, it's not
summon-sick.


Hope this helps.

Jasper

[Cannibal]

ok. that makes me feel a whole lot better about the ruling. it makes
perfect sense to ma that the lan that was just played would have
summoning sickness if it happened to get turned into a land on the same
turn.

thanks for the clarification.

-Cannibal-

Post by Jasper Overman

Post by Cannibal
i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.
can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?
i'll copy the stalking stones ruling (taken directly from the Wizards
MTG Homepage) and you tell me...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: I play Stalking Stones on my turn, pay 6 mana and turn it into a 3/3
artifact creature. It resolves. Stalking Stones says it's still a land.
Can I attack? Can I tap it for mana?
A: You can¹t attack with it or tap it for mana if it¹s a creature and
you haven¹t controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn.
All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected
by it. You can usually tap the Stones the same turn as you played it,
but once it¹s turned into a creature, you are unable to use any of its
activated abilities with the tap symbol if it has summoning sickness.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
now... unless i read that wrong it seems to imply that Natural Affinity
is intended to be used as a defensive card unless you can get around
the summoning sickness for your creatures (mass hysteria).

You read it wrong, but I admit it's written poorly to begin with. All
creatures, including lands-turned-into-creatures are affected by summoning
sickness. But, summoning sickness cares for when a permanent came into play,
not when it turned into a creature. If you play a Stalking Stones, you can
tap it for mana. If you tap 6 lands for mana, play a Stalking Stones, and
turn it into a creature, it's summon-sick. If you played a Stalking Stones
several turns ago, pay 6 mana, turn it into a creature, it's not
summon-sick.
Hope this helps.
Jasper

[Lee Sharpe]

Post by Cannibal
i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.
can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?

Yes, as long as you've controlled the land since the beginning of your most
recent turn. The rules for what was called "summoning sickness" care about
how long you've controlled the *permanent*, not how long it's been a
creature.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Cannibal
i just read a ruling for stalking stones that has me thinking about
natural affinity.
can my lands attack the turn that they get turned into creatures?

Depends. Have you controlled them since the start of your turn? Or not?

(It doesn't matter how _long_ they've been a creature; the check asks
"Are you now a creature?" and "Have you been under your current controller's
control since that player's most recent turn started?)

If you have not, they will still be "sick" lands, to use the old term, and
will become "sick" land creatures, unable to attack, or to use Tap-cost
activated abilities they may have.

But if you have, they won't be "sick" lands and won't turn into "sick"
land creatures.

Post by Cannibal
Q: I play Stalking Stones on my turn, pay 6 mana and turn it into a 3/3
artifact creature. It resolves. Stalking Stones says it's still a land.
Can I attack? Can I tap it for mana?
A: You can¹t attack with it or tap it for mana if it¹s a creature and
you haven¹t controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn.

This is the key. Note that this does NOT say "if it hasn't been a creature
you've controlled since..." - it checks separately, and doesn't care if the
land was a creature back when your turn started.

Post by Cannibal
All permanents have summoning sickness, but only creatures are affected
by it. You can usually tap the Stones the same turn as you played it,
but once it¹s turned into a creature, you are unable to use any of its
activated abilities with the tap symbol if it has summoning sickness.

Right. That first sentence is important to understanding "becomes a creature
/ stops being a creature" stuff: _everything_ that comes into play, or
changes controllers in play, gets 'sick'. Only creatures care about being
'sick' or not, though. (And everything stops being 'sick' at the start of
its controller's turn, even before untap step.)

Post by Cannibal
now... unless i read that wrong it seems to imply that Natural Affinity
is intended to be used as a defensive card unless you can get around
the summoning sickness for your creatures (mass hysteria).

You may have read it wrong. Look again; it's answering the specific question
asked, "I play it on my turn and animate it _on that same turn_". Once the
Stones have started your turn under your control, they're not 'sick' any
more, whether they're a land or a land creature.

Dave