Screams From Within

[Kiti Kiti]

Screams from Within (Enchanted creature gets -1/-1. When enchanted
creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from Within from your
graveyard to play.)

Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1, and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all
in one turn or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of
another player's turn?

The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play, it
enchants a creature with the defense of 1, that creature dies right
away because then it would be an illegal card it play because the
defense of the creature is 0. All creatures with a defense of 1 would
die in one turn. Then it would just sit on another creature in play
since the defense is higher than 1.


Would like to know since our group seems to argue how it is played.

[David de Kloet]

Post by Kiti Kiti
Screams from Within (Enchanted creature gets -1/-1. When enchanted
creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from Within from your
graveyard to play.)
Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1,

What??? Do you mean creatures in play with a toughness of 1?
I'll assume that.

Post by Kiti Kiti
and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all in one turn
or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of another
player's turn?

As long as you let SfW come back at a creature with toughness 1 they
will all be put into the graveyard in the same turn yes.

Post by Kiti Kiti
The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play,
it enchants a creature with the defense of 1, that creature dies
right away because then it would be an illegal card it play

Well, it is put into the graveyard as a state based effect if that's
what you mean.

Post by Kiti Kiti
because the defense of the creature is 0. All creatures with a
defense of 1 would die in one turn. Then it would just sit on
another creature in play since the defense is higher than 1.

You can play it like that, yes. (Assuming no other weird stuff.)

David

[Peter Cooper Jr.]

,----[ Oracle ]
| Screams from Within
| {1}{B}{B}
| Enchant Creature
| Enchanted creature gets -1/-1.
| When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from
| Within from your graveyard to play.
`----

Post by Kiti Kiti
Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1,

I think you mean that your opponent has several creatures in play with
a toughness of 1. The stack is where spells go to resolve.

Post by Kiti Kiti
and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all in one turn
or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of another
player's turn?

You can kill all of them, right after each other, in one turn.

Post by Kiti Kiti
The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play, it
enchants a creature with the defense of 1, that creature dies right
away because then it would be an illegal card it play because the
defense of the creature is 0.

I wouldn't call it "illegal", but it does go to its owner's graveyard
right away.

Post by Kiti Kiti
All creatures with a defense of 1 would die in one turn. Then it
would just sit on another creature in play since the defense is
higher than 1.

When the creature that it's enchanting dies, its ability triggers, and
you can put it back on something else in play. If that something also
has a toughness of 1, repeat.

Note that you have to return Screams From Within to play if you can,
so if you control the only creatures in play (maybe after you killed
all your opponent's creatures), then you have to have it enchanting
one of yours.

Post by Kiti Kiti
Would like to know since our group seems to argue how it is played.

I hope this helps. Please post again if you need more clarification or
if you have more questions.

[Simon Nejmann]

On 14 Apr 2004 00:38:35 -0700, ***@hotmail.com (Kiti
Kiti) wrote:

Screams from Within
{1}{B}{B}
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature gets -1/-1.
When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from
Within from your graveyard to play.

Post by Kiti Kiti
Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1, and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all
in one turn or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of
another player's turn?

A few things on wording:
*Defence? Creatures have power and toughness.
*Several cards on the stack? Only spells and abilities (effects?) go
on the stack where they wait untill they resolve or are countered. I
can think of a few interpretations of this:
1) There are one or more spells on the stack, that will put several
toughness 1 creatures into play if they resolve - but you can't
enchant creatures that aren't in play.
2) There are several toughness 1 creatures in play - in wich case you
can enchant one of them with SfW. This will (if nothing interferes)
reduce that creature to 0 toughness and it will go to the graveyard as
a state based effect, and the SfW will be returned to play (you select
the new target) - if you select another toughness 1 creature then it
too will die and you get to select another target for SfW again.

In short:
"do the creatures die all in one turn" - yes (given that
interpretation 2 is correct).

Post by Kiti Kiti
The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play, it
enchants a creature with the defense of 1, that creature dies right
away because then it would be an illegal card it play because the
defense of the creature is 0. All creatures with a defense of 1 would
die in one turn. Then it would just sit on another creature in play
since the defense is higher than 1.

Yes. Your wording is a bit lacking, but you got the big picture.

Note though: You select the new target each time it returns - only
your opponents creatures needs to be affected. Off course if no
opponents has a creature in play you will need to target one of your
own, and if no creatures are in play the return effect will be
invalid/countered (wording?) and SfW stays in the graveyard.

For the judges: How does SfW's return target act if SfW's controller
change? I would say that SfW allways goes to its owners graveyard and
there the "you" refers to the owner - thus the owner allways controlls
the return target (barring retargeting effects).

[Risser Family]

Post by Simon Nejmann
For the judges: How does SfW's return target act if SfW's controller
change? I would say that SfW allways goes to its owners graveyard and
there the "you" refers to the owner - thus the owner allways controlls
the return target (barring retargeting effects).

It's been a while, but i don't think enchantment cards that are coming back
into play from the graveyard actually target. So, you could kill a Nimble
Mongoose or Argothian Enchantress this way.

Peter

[Arkady Zilberberg]

Hello, Risser!
You wrote on Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:23:37 GMT:

RF> It's been a while, but i don't think enchantment cards that are
RF> coming back
RF> into play from the graveyard actually target. So, you could
RF> kill a Nimble
RF> Mongoose or Argothian Enchantress this way.

Your memory serves you well - here is the relevant rule:

212.4e If a local enchantment is coming into play by any other means
than being played, and the effect putting it into play doesn't specify
what it will enchant, the player putting it into play chooses a
permanent or player for it to enchant as it comes into play. In this
case, the enchantment doesn't target the permanent, but the player who
is putting it into play still must choose a permanent or player that the
enchantment can enchant. If no legal permanent or player is available,
the enchantment remains in the zone from which it attempted to move
instead of coming into play...

If an opponent has two */1 creatures and a Troll Ascetic in play and you
hold two Screams from Within and enough mana to use both, you can kill
the Troll without a possibility of regeneration...

Regards,
Arkady.

[Vincent Roscioli]

The answers to the original question have been correct to the best of my
knowledge.

Post by Simon Nejmann
*Several cards on the stack? Only spells and abilities (effects?) go
on the stack where they wait untill they resolve or are countered.

Spells and abilities go on the stack. Effects are the results of carrying
out the instructions of an ability.

Post by Simon Nejmann
Off course if no
opponents has a creature in play you will need to target one of your
own, and if no creatures are in play the return effect will be
invalid/countered (wording?) and SfW stays in the graveyard.

Screams from Within does not target. Its comes-into-play ability will
trigger and stack as normal. If, when it resolves, there are still no
creatures in play, it will Do Nothing (TM).

Post by Simon Nejmann
For the judges: How does SfW's return target act if SfW's controller
change? I would say that SfW allways goes to its owners graveyard and
there the "you" refers to the owner - thus the owner allways controlls
the return target (barring retargeting effects).

For leaves-play triggers, "you" always refers to the controller of the
object before it left play. If your opponent controlled the SfW, he controls
its triggered ability. Cards in graveyards do not have controllers.

Post by Simon Nejmann
--
Regards
Simon Nejmann

---
Vincent Roscioli
Level I DCI Judge

[David DeLaney]

Post by Vincent Roscioli

Post by Simon Nejmann
*Several cards on the stack? Only spells and abilities (effects?) go
on the stack where they wait untill they resolve or are countered.

Spells and abilities go on the stack. Effects are the results of carrying
out the instructions of an ability.

Combat damage also uses the stack. (And mana abilities do not use it.) The
big long section in the rulebook on "things that don't use the stack" is
in some sense redundant, as ONLY spells, nonmana activated abilities,
nonmana triggered abilities, and combat damage get to use it at all...

Dave

[David DeLaney]

Post by Simon Nejmann
Yes. Your wording is a bit lacking, but you got the big picture.
Note though: You select the new target each time it returns

Wording nitpick: there's no targetting involved at ALL, in fact. You do have
to pick a creature it can -enchant- - one it can legally be attached to -
so no proBlack creatures. But "can't be the target of spells or abilities"
won't stop Screams from Within from coming back from a graveyard onto a
creature.

Post by Simon Nejmann
Off course if no
opponents has a creature in play you will need to target

enchant

Post by Simon Nejmann
one of your own, and if no creatures are in play the return effect will be
invalid/countered (wording?) and SfW stays in the graveyard.

Right, as noted in 212.4e .

Post by Simon Nejmann
For the judges: How does SfW's return target act if SfW's controller
change?

No targetting is involved. The player who controls it as -the creature- goes
to the graveyard is the controller of the triggered ability. (Note that in
certain weird circumstances this could be different from the controller of
the Screams when the _Screams_ goes to the graveyard...) That player is who
gets to put it back into play, so by default is its new controller AND is
the player picking what it will enchant.

Note that if for some Weird Reason the Screams isn't going to the graveyard
of the player who controls its triggered ability, it isn't coming back,
though - so a stolen Screams will in general NOT come back. You can't
return something from your graveyard to play unless it's IN your graveyard
to start with...

Post by Simon Nejmann
I would say that SfW allways goes to its owners graveyard and
there the "you" refers to the owner - thus the owner allways controlls
the return target (barring retargeting effects).

Nope. No targetting, as above. The player controlling the Screams as its
ability triggers - as the creature goes to the graveyard - will be the
controller of the triggered ability... and this can easily be different than
the player whose graveyard the Screams is going _to_.

Dave

[Chris Mattern]

Post by Kiti Kiti
Screams from Within (Enchanted creature gets -1/-1. When enchanted
creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from Within from your
graveyard to play.)
Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1,

Cards on the stack are spells, not creatures, and so do not have a
defense. Perhaps you meant to say "several creatures in play with
a defense of 1."

Post by Kiti Kiti
and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all
in one turn or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of
another player's turn?
The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play, it
enchants a creature with the defense of 1, that creature dies right
away because then it would be an illegal card it play because the
defense of the creature is 0. All creatures with a defense of 1 would
die in one turn. Then it would just sit on another creature in play
since the defense is higher than 1.

The first thing you do after any effect finishes resolving is check
for state based effects, such as "if player's life is below one, he
loses", "any local enchantments whose subjects have left play are
placed in the graveyard", and, oh yes, "any creature with a toughness
less than one is placed in the graveyard". So the 1/1, now 0/0,
goes to the graveyard. State-based effects are checked again, and
now Screams goes to the graveyard itself because of the second state-
based effect I quoted. Then triggered effects are checked for, and
you have one; the creature Screams enchanted went to the graveyard.
So "return Screams to play" is placed on the stack and will resolve
when its turn comes. When it does resolve, you can place it on
another 1/1 and start the whole process again.

Post by Kiti Kiti
Would like to know since our group seems to argue how it is played.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Kiti Kiti
Screams from Within (Enchanted creature gets -1/-1. When enchanted
creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from Within from your
graveyard to play.)
Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1, and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all
in one turn or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of
another player's turn?

Well, if the cards are _on the stack_, Screams from Within can't enchant
ANY of them... as cards on the stack are spells, not permanents.

If you meant to ask "several creatures _in play_ with a _toughness_ of 1 each",
then they all die that same phase, assuming you keep returning Screams to
play to attach to the next one of them.

Nothing on Screams from Within has the words "end of turn" anywhere in the
text, so there's no sort of delay on the triggered ability; it triggers
on the death of the creature, and goes on the stack right afterwards, and
resolves normally.

Post by Kiti Kiti
The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play, it
enchants a creature with the defense

toughness

Post by Kiti Kiti
of 1, that creature dies right
away because then it would be an illegal card it play because the defense

toughness

Post by Kiti Kiti
of the creature is 0.

Almost right away; you do have to wait for state-based effects to be checked.
But yes, before any new spell or ability can be announced or resolve, or
any special action can be taken, that creature will die because it's now
got 0 or less toughness.

Post by Kiti Kiti
All creatures with a defense of 1 would
die in one turn. Then it would just sit on another creature in play
since the defense is higher than 1.

"toughness" x2. And yes.

Dave

[Andy Jakcsy]

Kiti Kiti sez:

<<

Post by Kiti Kiti
Screams from Within (Enchanted creature gets -1/-1. When enchanted
creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from Within from your
graveyard to play.)
Say you have an opponent who has several cards on the stack with a
defense of 1, and I play Screams from Within do the creatures die all
in one turn or does one die at end of turn and another at the end of
another player's turn?

Well, first you have to wait for all the creatures to get into play. :)

THEN, if you play Screams on one of them, it kills one of them from 0 toughness
as a State-Based ability. You then return it to play, picking a new enchantee,
another 1 toughness creature. Repeat until no 1 toughness creatures are left
or you intentionally pick a non-1-toughness creature. After that, Screams is
either enchanting a non-1-toughness creature or is in the graveyard because
there aren't any legal enchantees. So, in answer to your question, it's
possible to kill all 1 toughness creatures in one turn with a single Screams.

<<

Post by Kiti Kiti
The way I see it is that when Screams from Within comes into play, it
enchants a creature with the defense of 1, that creature dies right
away because then it would be an illegal card it play because the
defense of the creature is 0. All creatures with a defense of 1 would
die in one turn. Then it would just sit on another creature in play
since the defense is higher than 1.

Not NECESSARILY. If there are other creatures with more than 1 toughness, you
can decide to stop the madness and enchant one of them instead of another 1
toughness creature. So you can selectively kill off 1 toughness creatures
(kill off your opponents', keep your own).


----
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."
--Sigmund Freud
"Sometimes a cake is just a cake."
--Deanna Troi, Star Trek: TNG: "Phantasms"