Discussion:
Ghostly Prison , Propaganda and Icy Manipulator
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g***@yahoo.co.in
2006-04-10 19:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I could'nt find anything on Ghostly Prison and Icy Manipulator.

But I did find an explanation on the interaction between Propaganda and
Icy manipulator.

So just to confirm, the interaction between Ghostly Prison and Icy
manipulator is the same as the interaction between Propaganda and Icy
Manipulator?

Best Regards and Thanks in advance.

Edmund
Peter Cooper Jr.
2006-04-10 19:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
I could'nt find anything on Ghostly Prison and Icy Manipulator.
But I did find an explanation on the interaction between Propaganda and
Icy manipulator.
So just to confirm, the interaction between Ghostly Prison and Icy
manipulator is the same as the interaction between Propaganda and Icy
Manipulator?
Well, Ghostly Prison has the same text as Propaganda, so they would
act the same way (except for things that care about their color or
name or the like, of course). But I don't see what "interaction"
between them you're referring to. Could you be more specific?
--
Peter C.
g***@yahoo.co.in
2006-04-10 19:58:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Cooper Jr.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
I could'nt find anything on Ghostly Prison and Icy Manipulator.
But I did find an explanation on the interaction between Propaganda and
Icy manipulator.
So just to confirm, the interaction between Ghostly Prison and Icy
manipulator is the same as the interaction between Propaganda and Icy
Manipulator?
Well, Ghostly Prison has the same text as Propaganda, so they would
act the same way (except for things that care about their color or
name or the like, of course). But I don't see what "interaction"
between them you're referring to. Could you be more specific?
--
Peter C.
Hi,

Thanks for the quick reply.


++++++++++++++++++++++// what I found from past posts

A search on this group yields this:

http://groups.google.com.sg/group/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules/search?group=rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules&q=propaganda+icy+manipulator&qt_g=1&searchnow=Search+this+group

If the timing rules have not changed since 1998 then this link should
answer my question =)

http://groups.google.com.sg/group/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules/browse_thread/thread/f34de94dd906cafd/9c0203f8a7b62eb1?q=propaganda+icy+manipulator&rnum=3#9c0203f8a7b62eb1


++++++++++++++++++++++// what I found from past posts end


Essentially this snippet is the situation I am interested in, is it the
same for Ghostly Prison?
Post by Peter Cooper Jr.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
If i have an icy manipulator in play, along with a propaganda, and
my
Post by Peter Cooper Jr.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
opponent has two creatures in play, when can i tap a creature with the icy.
If he declares an attack phase, then i have a chance to tap his creatures,
but if he is going to attack then he must first pay propaganda's cost and
then i can respond with the icy. Is this correct? or do i have to tap
first and then he can declare his attackers? Can someone please help me
out on the exact timing.
Propaganda's cost-to-attack is special; it must be paid _during_ the
declare-attackers step of combat, just before the attackers are actually
declared. You can't respond to this payment with Icy Manipulator.
If you want to use Icy Manipulator to prevent a creature from attacking,
you have to do it before the attack starts. Propaganda doesn't change this.
Peter Cooper Jr.
2006-04-10 22:02:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
Essentially this snippet is the situation I am interested in, is it the
same for Ghostly Prison?
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
If i have an icy manipulator in play, along with a propaganda, and
my opponent has two creatures in play, when can i tap a creature
with the icy. If he declares an attack phase, then i have a chance
to tap his creatures, but if he is going to attack then he must
first pay propaganda's cost and then i can respond with the icy.
Is this correct? or do i have to tap first and then he can declare
his attackers? Can someone please help me out on the exact timing.
You have to be careful when searching the group archives for rules
answers, as the rules have changed significantly since 1998 when that
thread you referred to was posted. The answer there is pretty much
correct, though.

Combat has 5 steps:
1. Beginning of Combat
2. Declare Attackers
3. Declare Blockers
4. Combat Damage
5. End of Combat

If you want to use an Icy Manipulator to tap a creature to prevent it
from being declared as an attacker, the latest point that you can do
that is during the Beginning of Combat step.

As the first part of the Declare Attackers step, the active player
declares who his attackers are and pays costs for them. Usually this
is just tapping the creature, but things like Ghostly Prison can add
additional costs that need to be paid in order to attack. (Technically
according to the rules, the tap to declare a creature as an attacker
isn't a cost, and additional costs like Ghostly Prison's are handled
right after tapping the creature. But this be an easier way to think
about it.) The additional cost is all just a part of declaring
attackers.

So, Icy Manipulator and Ghostly Prison don't really interact with each
other at all, which why I was confused by your question at
first. Ghostly Prison's cost is paid when a creature is declared as an
attacker, and Icy Manipulator has to be used before attackers are
declared in order to prevent something from being used as an attacker.

Hope this helps. Please post again if you have any more questions.
--
Peter C.
David DeLaney
2006-04-10 21:33:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
http://groups.google.com.sg/group/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules/search?group=rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules&q=propaganda+icy+manipulator&qt_g=1&searchnow=Search+this+group
If the timing rules have not changed since 1998 then this link should
answer my question =)
A dangerous assumption; 6E rules came in in early 1999, and provided extra
steps in the new Combat phase (formerly "the attack") that weren't there
previously. However, what this did for "tapping stuff before it can attack"
is essentially give you another space in which to do so before declaring
attackers; it didn't take away any previous time when you could do so. (But
it DID mean that now there was a time you can do this where active player
isn't in Main phase any more, so can't cast Sorceries or summon more creatures
-after- you tap the creature he wanted to attack with.)
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
http://groups.google.com.sg/group/rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules/browse_thread/thread/f34de94dd906cafd/9c0203f8a7b62eb1?q=propaganda+icy+manipulator&rnum=3#9c0203f8a7b62eb1
Okay, and I see I was on the ball then. But, as noted above, this answer was
good under _5th_ Edition rules. Under 6E and later rules, there is indeed
a space to tap stuff with the Icy once the attack has started, but before
attackers are declared - the first step of Combat's five (or six, or 3) steps,
"beginning of combat" step. Attackers are these days declared as step 2,
"declare attackers" step, starts. Under 5E and previous rule sets, the attack
had only the equivalents of steps 2 and 3, and combat damage was essentially
done during a space "at the end of the attack" when regular spells or abilities
weren't legal (see: 'damage prevention step'). Step 1 didn't exist then - so
back then, yes, you DID have to use the Icy during Main phase, or be unable
to once the attack had started. This is no longer the case...
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
Essentially this snippet is the situation I am interested in, is it the
same for Ghostly Prison?
Yep. You can tap stuff with an Icy during step 1 of Combat phase, before
attackers get declared at all. Tapping stuff with an Icy during steps 2-5 of
Combat does not in any way remove attackers (or blockers) from combat that
have already been declared as attackers/blockers.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
2006-04-10 21:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
I could'nt find anything on Ghostly Prison and Icy Manipulator.
Before reading ANY further:

Tapping something with Icy Manipulator does not "make it attack" in any way
- so Ghostly Prison doesn't add any sort of additional cost to the use of
an Icy.

To make a creature unable to attack with the Icy, you'd want to tap it -before-
attackers are declared. Active player cannot "rush into his attack to get past
the point where the Icy is usable before you could use it" ... and you cannot
"wait to see what he declares as attackers, then try to tap one before it can
attack". If you use the Icy for this purpose, you must use it either a) during
the precombat Main phase, before Combat phase starts at all, or b) during the
beginning-of-combat step, before attackers are declared at all... and active
player must provide the spaces / pauses for you to use it in if you want to.
Thus, you CANNOT "wait until he says what he's paying for to attack, then
tap one of them so it can't attack". Ever.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
But I did find an explanation on the interaction between Propaganda and
Icy manipulator.
Same sort of thing, if you're thinking about what I THINK you're thinking
about - you can't wait to see what he attacks with, THEN say "wait, before
you attack, I tap _that_ one". And he can't rush ahead to deny you the chance
to tap something before he declares his attackers.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
So just to confirm, the interaction between Ghostly Prison and Icy
manipulator is the same as the interaction between Propaganda and Icy
Manipulator?
Yep. Since you didn't provide details about which particular interaction, I'm
guessing above, but I think I may be answering your actual question...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from ***@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Zoe Stephenson
2006-04-19 20:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
Hi all,
I could'nt find anything on Ghostly Prison and Icy Manipulator.
Ghostly Prison {2}{W} Enchantment
/ Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays {2} for each
creature attacking you. (This cost is paid as attackers are
declared.)

Icy Manipulator {4} Artifact
/ {1}, {T}: Tap target artifact, creature, or land.

You can tap things that produce mana before the combat phase so that
the opponent is only able to attack with fewer creatures, depending on
just what sources of mana he or she has around. You can tap a creature
before the attackers are declared to prevent it from being able to
attack, the opponent will then be able to attack with whichever of the
remaining creatures he or she can afford.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
But I did find an explanation on the interaction between Propaganda and
Icy manipulator.
Propaganda {2}{U} Enchantment
/ Creatures can't attack you unless their controller pays {2} for each
creature attacking you. (This cost is paid as attackers are
declared.)

Same text, same interaction. Looking ahead at your followups in a
sneaky manner, I see that you're looking at a fairly old post. I
generally try to quote the relevant Oracle text and rules where it
looks like it's a rule technicality, in case the rules change in
the future and someone's looking through the archives. So, for the
benefit of future generations:

306.1. The combat phase has five steps, which proceed in order:
beginning of combat, declare attackers, declare blockers, combat
damage, and end of combat. The declare blockers and combat damage
steps are skipped if no creatures are declared as attackers (see rule
308.4). There are two combat damage steps if any attacking or
blocking creature has first strike (see rule 502.2) or double strike
(see rule 502.28).

306.2a Once a creature has been declared as an attacking or blocking
creature, spells or abilities that would have kept that creature from
attacking or blocking don't remove the creature from combat.

308.1. As the declare attackers step begins, the active player
declares attackers (this game action doesn't use the stack). If the
game allows the active player to attack multiple other players, he or
she declares which player each creature is attacking. Effects from a
creature that refer to a defending player refer only to the defending
player it is attacking. Then any abilities that triggered on
attackers being declared go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling
Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and
players may play spells and abilities.
Post by g***@yahoo.co.in
So just to confirm, the interaction between Ghostly Prison and Icy
manipulator is the same as the interaction between Propaganda and Icy
Manipulator?
If you want to tap a creature so that it can't attack, you have to do
it before the declare attackers step begins. It's usual to do it in
the beginning of combat step - in olden times there wasn't any such
step, and you had to do such things in the main phase (at which point,
a Ball Lightning to the face was not unheard of). With reference to
the payment for Ghostly Prison, you have to choose what to tap before
you know which creatures the active player will attack with, or even
who they're going to attack in the case of a multiplayer game. You
can't wait and see what's been chosen, and then try to prevent some
of those particular creatures from attacking.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.boondock.org.uk/~zoe/mtgrules/ --
--
Peter Cooper Jr.
2006-04-19 22:45:37 UTC
Permalink
With reference to the payment for Ghostly Prison, you have to choose
what to tap before you know which creatures the active player will
attack with, or even who they're going to attack in the case of a
multiplayer game. You can't wait and see what's been chosen, and
then try to prevent some of those particular creatures from
attacking.
In a multiplayer game, the active player announces who he's going to
attack at the start of the combat phase, so one does know who the
defending player is during the Beginning of Combat Step.

,----[ Magic Comp. Rules ]
| 306.3. During the combat phase, the active player is attacking and
| is the attacking player. As the combat phase starts, the active
| player chooses one of his or her opponents. The chosen opponent is
| being attacked and is the defending player. Some multiplayer games
| allow the active player to attack multiple other players. See rule
| 602, "Attack Multiple Players Option" and rule 606, "Two-Headed
| Giant Variant."
`----
--
Peter C.
Zoe Stephenson
2006-04-19 22:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Cooper Jr.
With reference to the payment for Ghostly Prison, you have to choose
what to tap before you know which creatures the active player will
attack with, or even who they're going to attack in the case of a
multiplayer game. You can't wait and see what's been chosen, and
then try to prevent some of those particular creatures from
attacking.
In a multiplayer game, the active player announces who he's going to
attack at the start of the combat phase, so one does know who the
defending player is during the Beginning of Combat Step.
,----[ Magic Comp. Rules ]
| 306.3. During the combat phase, the active player is attacking and
| is the attacking player. As the combat phase starts, the active
| player chooses one of his or her opponents. The chosen opponent is
| being attacked and is the defending player. Some multiplayer games
| allow the active player to attack multiple other players. See rule
| 602, "Attack Multiple Players Option" and rule 606, "Two-Headed
| Giant Variant."
`----
Good catch - all the games I play use rule 602, I often forget (as I
did just now) that it's not the norm. Insert '...using rule 602,
"Attack Multiple Players Option"' in an appropriate place in my comment
above.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.boondock.org.uk/~zoe/mtgrules/ --
--
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