split second and counterspell

[n***@yahoo.fr]

Hi everyone,

I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)

Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

If no, let me give you my feeling: some combo were just too
powerful (ie you'd win the match if you could do it), but there
was always the possibility to "counterspell" it (and to counter-
counter spell, etc.). Then came "Force of will" and in type 1
it became a very used card (and worth some money).

Now there are "split second" cards that you can't counter, yet.

Then a new extension will come and there'll be a new 'match-winning'
combo that depends on a 'split second' card. So there's also
gonna be a new "split-second counterspell".

Then WOTC will introduce the "split split second" concept. Then
the "split split second counterspell" etc. ad nauseam.

Thoughts on this?

Sorry for the rant, but it's kind of hard to come back after a long
interruption and to try to understand "what's going on" :)

[David DeLaney]

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Hi everyone,
I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)

Heh. And yet a lot of it will seem eeeerily familiar to you.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

Nope.

First off, the old Counterspell was an Interrupt; Interrupts went Away in
1999. Poof, gone. No more separate timing system for them. Now spells are
Instants or Sorceries; Counterspell is an Instant. Along with this change
there is now no "interrupt window" and no "successfully cast" point in a
spell's life-cycle. And, after one response to a spell resolves (assuming it
doesn't counter the spell), you can add another response...

Split Second means spells and abilities, other than mana abilities, can't be
played while this spell is on the stack. Meaning that no spells can respond
to it, for one thing ... which includes Counterspell.
Triggered abilities aren't "played", and can still trigger and get put on
the stack normally while a Split Second spell is there, so a "Whenever an
opponent plays a spell, counter it unless Blah" ability could counter a Split
Second spell from opponent. And things that say to "copy a spell", rather than
to "copy a card and play the copy", aren't playing the copy either, so a
Mirari could make a copy of a Split Second instant/sorcery (since Mirari's
ability is triggered, and on resolving copies the spell).

But an ordinary "Counter target spell" spell or ability can't get played
(announced) while a Split Second spell is on the stack.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Now there are "split second" cards that you can't counter, yet.

Yes. But there's no way to give _random_ spells "split second" - so only the
ten spells that have Split Second have this immunity.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Then WOTC will introduce the "split split second" concept. Then
the "split split second counterspell" etc. ad nauseam.
Thoughts on this?

It's more likely, I'd think, if this arms war turns up, that they'd introduce
a triggered ability that removed all abilities of spells on the stack, or
just a few common cards with triggered countering abilities.

Dave

[n***@yahoo.fr]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)

Heh. And yet a lot of it will seem eeeerily familiar to you.

ah, that's a good news :)

Post by David DeLaney

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

Nope.
First off, the old Counterspell was an Interrupt; Interrupts went Away in
1999. Poof, gone. No more separate timing system for them. Now spells are
Instants or Sorceries; Counterspell is an Instant. Along with this change
there is now no "interrupt window" and no "successfully cast" point in a
spell's life-cycle. And, after one response to a spell resolves (assuming it
doesn't counter the spell), you can add another response...
Split Second means spells and abilities, other than mana abilities, can't be
played while this spell is on the stack. Meaning that no spells can respond
to it, for one thing ... which includes Counterspell.
Triggered abilities aren't "played", and can still trigger and get put on
the stack normally while a Split Second spell is there, so a "Whenever an
opponent plays a spell, counter it unless Blah" ability could counter a Split
Second spell from opponent. And things that say to "copy a spell", rather than
to "copy a card and play the copy", aren't playing the copy either, so a
Mirari could make a copy of a Split Second instant/sorcery (since Mirari's
ability is triggered, and on resolving copies the spell).

oh that's very interesting...

Post by David DeLaney
But an ordinary "Counter target spell" spell or ability can't get played
(announced) while a Split Second spell is on the stack.

I see, makes sense.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to answer, I'm getting into shape (and
buying
some cards on eBay) to make a few 1vs1 matches :)

Driss

[Chris Mattern]

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Hi everyone,
I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)
Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

Nope. Counterspell is an Instant, you can't play it to
counter the split-second card. This is true even if the
Counterspell you have says "Interrupt"; Gatherer lists
it as an Instant, so it is one. There are no longer
any Interrupts in Magic, even if you have a card that
says that; it's now an Instant.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
If no, let me give you my feeling: some combo were just too
powerful (ie you'd win the match if you could do it), but there
was always the possibility to "counterspell" it (and to counter-
counter spell, etc.). Then came "Force of will" and in type 1
it became a very used card (and worth some money).
Now there are "split second" cards that you can't counter, yet.

There have been cards you couldn't counter before, although they
did it by straight card text stating they can't be countered,
rather than by a keyword awarding special timing.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Then a new extension will come and there'll be a new 'match-winning'
combo that depends on a 'split second' card. So there's also
gonna be a new "split-second counterspell".

WotC has gotten pretty good about balancing the cards, and they're
well aware of how dangerous uncounterable spells are. I doubt
we'll see a "match-winning" split-second combo. If we do, look
for the card or cards to get banned instead of them cobbling up
a way to counter it. That's what they've done before to
unabalanced game-winning combos that *were* counterable. WotC
has not for some time regarded the argument, "Well, you can
counter it," to be an adequate response to an unbalanced
combo. It's not good for the game to make everybody play blue
control as part of their strategy.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Then WOTC will introduce the "split split second" concept. Then
the "split split second counterspell" etc. ad nauseam.
Thoughts on this?

Not damn likely. First off, if they make a mistake, they'll cope
with it by banning the card. Second, WotC has gotten in the
habit of introducing "trademark" keyword special abilities with
each expansion cycle, and cards with such an ability are not
reprinted, nor are new ones with it made, after the cycle is
passed. They are intentionally breaking this rule with the
current cycle, which is bringing back all kinds of keywords,
of course, but that's the gimmick for this cycle Since it's
time travel, we're getting all kinds of blasts from the past.
Nevertheless, I predict that when this cycle leaves Standard,
there won't be a single split-second spell left in the format.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Sorry for the rant, but it's kind of hard to come back after a long
interruption and to try to understand "what's going on" :)

Magic is very different nowadays (I started about when you
quit), and mostly for the better. The rules are much better
(timing is now understandable!) and WotC has gotten very
practiced at making cards that are exciting but balanced.
Welcome back, and I wouldn't lose much sleep over split-second
if I were you. Head over to the official Magic website and
read the Comprehensive Rules, if you like; it's a heavy
read but it'll catch you up on how Magic plays now.

[Eric Jablow]

Post by Chris Mattern

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Hi everyone,
I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)
Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

Nope. Counterspell is an Instant, you can't play it to
counter the split-second card. This is true even if the
Counterspell you have says "Interrupt"; Gatherer lists
it as an Instant, so it is one. There are no longer
any Interrupts in Magic, even if you have a card that
says that; it's now an Instant.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
If no, let me give you my feeling: some combo were just too
powerful (ie you'd win the match if you could do it), but there
was always the possibility to "counterspell" it (and to counter-
counter spell, etc.). Then came "Force of will" and in type 1
it became a very used card (and worth some money).
Now there are "split second" cards that you can't counter, yet.

This is more a strategy question than anything else, but can the
Voidmage Apprentice be used to counter a split second spell?

Voidmage Apprentice
Legions common
1U
Creature - Wizard
1/1
Morph 2UU
When Voidmage Apprentice is turned face up,
counter target spell.

The morph action is special, and doesn't use the stack, right?
So, it can still be performed even though a SS spell is atop the
stack. Of course, to use this effectively, one would need to
have 4 mana available. which is greatly limiting.

[l0ne (on mac)]

Post by Eric Jablow
The morph action is special, and doesn't use the stack, right?
So, it can still be performed even though a SS spell is atop the
stack. Of course, to use this effectively, one would need to
have 4 mana available. which is greatly limiting.

You are almost correct; the triggered ability (when triggers when
Voidmage Apprentice is turned face up) _will_ use the stack, although
simply using the Morph effect to turn it face up does not.

Triggered abilities are not stopped by Split Second, though, so this
will work fine.

- ∞

[David DeLaney]

Post by Eric Jablow

Post by Chris Mattern
Nope. Counterspell is an Instant, you can't play it to
counter the split-second card. This is true even if the
Counterspell you have says "Interrupt"; Gatherer lists
it as an Instant, so it is one. There are no longer
any Interrupts in Magic, even if you have a card that
says that; it's now an Instant.

This is more a strategy question than anything else, but can the
Voidmage Apprentice be used to counter a split second spell?
Voidmage Apprentice >1U >Creature - Wizard
1/1 Morph 2UU When ~ is turned face up, counter target spell.
The morph action is special, and doesn't use the stack, right?

Right. It is not a spell or ability that gets played, as such. (And you
mean the 'turn face-up action' rather than the 'play it as a face-down spell
action', right? It's usually confusing to try to talk about 'morphing
something' or 'the morph action', for much the same reason 'speed' doesn't
work right as a concept in Magic...)

Post by Eric Jablow
So, it can still be performed even though a SS spell is atop the stack.

Right. And doing so triggers the VA ability, which also isn't played -
triggered abilities can get added to the stack just fine with a Split
Second spell on it. And of course Split Second does nothing to stop things
already on the stack from resolving. So, combining all that, this is
something Split Second can't do anything about, that could counter the
Split Second spell, correct.

Post by Eric Jablow
Of course, to use this effectively, one would need to
have 4 mana available. which is greatly limiting.

Well, here we're getting into the strategy part... but remember that mana
abilities are perfectly legal under Split Second.

Dave

[m***@gmail.com]

Voidmage Apprentice works, but Willbender is probably a better solution
if you're worried.

Willbender 1U
Creature - Human Wizard
Morph 1U
When Willbender is turned face up, change the target of target spell or
ability with a single target.

All the split second cards in Time Spiral other than the white ones
target, so Willbender will do a better job than Voidmage Apprentice,
since instead of countering their spell it'll turn it against 'em.

You probably don't need to worry about game-winning split second
combos, though. None of the ten split second cards in Time Spiral have
the ability to create an infinite loop. You should be more worried
about Storm and Replicate, which are abilities that create multiple
copies of your spells, so they can't be countered unless you have a
Counterspell for each copy.

Post by Eric Jablow

Post by Chris Mattern

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Hi everyone,
I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)
Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

Nope. Counterspell is an Instant, you can't play it to
counter the split-second card. This is true even if the
Counterspell you have says "Interrupt"; Gatherer lists
it as an Instant, so it is one. There are no longer
any Interrupts in Magic, even if you have a card that
says that; it's now an Instant.

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
If no, let me give you my feeling: some combo were just too
powerful (ie you'd win the match if you could do it), but there
was always the possibility to "counterspell" it (and to counter-
counter spell, etc.). Then came "Force of will" and in type 1
it became a very used card (and worth some money).
Now there are "split second" cards that you can't counter, yet.

This is more a strategy question than anything else, but can the
Voidmage Apprentice be used to counter a split second spell?
Voidmage Apprentice
Legions common
1U
Creature - Wizard
1/1
Morph 2UU
When Voidmage Apprentice is turned face up,
counter target spell.
The morph action is special, and doesn't use the stack, right?
So, it can still be performed even though a SS spell is atop the
stack. Of course, to use this effectively, one would need to
have 4 mana available. which is greatly limiting.
--
Respectfully,
Eric Jablow

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by n***@yahoo.fr
Hi everyone,
I'm continuing my re-discovery of Magic. I used to play
during the Arabian Nights to Ice Age period, then stopped
for, what, nearly ten years? :)
Can an old "counterspell" counter the new "split second" cards?

No. As long as a spell with split second is on the stack, player's
can't play other spells.

502.58. Split Second

502.58a Split second is a static ability that functions only while the
spell with split second is on the stack. "Split second" means "As long
as this spell is on the stack, players can't play other spells or
abilities that aren't mana abilities."