Scythe of the Wretched

[Francisco Ho]

(I originally posted this in .strategy, but after thinking about it, I
think I should have posted here instead.)

Hi all,

I was re-reading one of the old articles in Magic's website and
remembered one on Scythe of the Wretched. The article is here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb89

According to the article, they pumped up Scythe because of the potential
combo with Triskelion. However, won't it work the same way if there is a
non-token */1 creature in play? I might have mis-read Scythe's text,
but let me elaborate:

1) Have the Triskelion equiped with the Scythe
2) Remove a +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage to
itself. At this point, it is a 5/5 with one damage.
3) Remove another +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to my opponent. The Triskelion is now a 4/4 with one damage.
4) Remove the last +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to the */1 creature. At this point, it deals lethal damage and the */1
creature is sent to the graveyard. The Triskelion, meanwhile, it is a
3/3 creature with one damage.
5) Since the */1 creature was dealt damage by a creature with Scythe
attached to it, it returns to play under my control and Scythe will be
attach to it.
6) However, removing the Scythe from the Triskelion makes it a 1/1
creature with one damage, effectively sending it to the graveyard.
7) Since the one damage was dealt by a creature with the Scythe attached
to it, the Triskelion will return to play under my control with the
Scythe attached to it.

Am I mistaken here and the Triskelion has to have the Scythe attached to
it when it goes to the graveyard or it works as above? Thanks for any
comments anybody can give.

Scythe of the Wretched
A
(2)
Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature gets +2/+2.
Whenever a creature dealt damage by equipped creature this turn is put
into a graveyard, return that card to play under your control. Attach
Scythe of the Wretched to that creature.
Equip 4

Triskelion
A
(6)
Artifact Creature
1/1
Triskelion comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on it.
Remove a +1/+1 counter from Triskelion: Triskelion deals 1 damage to
target creature or player.

[Aaron Huntsman]

Post by Francisco Ho
According to the article, they pumped up Scythe because of the potential
combo with Triskelion. However, won't it work the same way if there is a
non-token */1 creature in play?

It would depend on the particular */1 creature and other cards in play, but
assuming no other abilities come into play, then no. Let's follow the steps,
shall we?

Post by Francisco Ho
1) Have the Triskelion equiped with the Scythe
2) Remove a +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage to
itself. At this point, it is a 5/5 with one damage.
3) Remove another +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to my opponent. The Triskelion is now a 4/4 with one damage.
4) Remove the last +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to the */1 creature. At this point, it deals lethal damage and the */1
creature is sent to the graveyard. The Triskelion, meanwhile, it is a
3/3 creature with one damage.
5) Since the */1 creature was dealt damage by a creature with Scythe
attached to it, it returns to play under my control and Scythe will be
attach to it.
6) However, removing the Scythe from the Triskelion makes it a 1/1
creature with one damage, effectively sending it to the graveyard.

Yep, you're right up to this point.

Post by Francisco Ho
7) Since the one damage was dealt by a creature with the Scythe attached
to it, the Triskelion will return to play under my control with the
Scythe attached to it.

Stop right here.

You're assuming that the Scythe, which is now on your */1 creature, triggers
when the Triskelion hits the graveyard. But the Scythe does not trigger at
all. Why? Because Triskelion was not dealt damage this turn by the *equipped
creature*. At the particular moment your Triskelion goes to the graveyard,
the equipped creature is now your */1 creature. Scythe has no memory of what
it used to equip; it only knows what it's equipping right now.

Now, if your */1 creature *had* somehow dealt damage to the Triskelion when
the Triskelion dies, then the Scythe *will* trigger here. But now we're
getting into strategy.

AMH

[Andy Jakcsy]

Aaron Huntsman sez:

<<

Post by Aaron Huntsman
Now, if your */1 creature *had* somehow dealt damage to the Triskelion when
the Triskelion dies, then the Scythe *will* trigger here. But now we're

getting into strategy.
Actually, we're getting into "things that are impossible to happen," since
nothing can happen between the Scythe's trigger and checking SBE's. Only after
the Skelly goes to the graveyard do any triggered abilities go on the stack (I
think; it might be before, but it doesn't matter, because by the time that
ability resolves, Skelly's long gone...)


----
"Boy, you left wing liberal socialists sure have tunnel vision."
"You show a very right-wing bias which casts a shadow on any attempt at truth
seeking."
--Excerpts of comments to snopes.com, an urban legends website

[Aaron Huntsman]

Post by Aaron Huntsman
Now, if your */1 creature *had* somehow dealt damage to the Triskelion
when the Triskelion dies, then the Scythe *will* trigger here. But now
we're getting into strategy.

Just disregard all this. For some reason I was thinking that the */1
creature, upon returning to play, would remember what it had dealt damage to
before. Obviously, it won't.

AMH

[Andy Jakcsy]

Francisco Ho sez:

<<

Post by Francisco Ho
1) Have the Triskelion equiped with the Scythe
2) Remove a +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage to
itself. At this point, it is a 5/5 with one damage.
3) Remove another +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to my opponent. The Triskelion is now a 4/4 with one damage.
4) Remove the last +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to the */1 creature. At this point, it deals lethal damage and the */1
creature is sent to the graveyard. The Triskelion, meanwhile, it is a
3/3 creature with one damage.
5) Since the */1 creature was dealt damage by a creature with Scythe
attached to it, it returns to play under my control and Scythe will be

attach to it.

Post by Francisco Ho
6) However, removing the Scythe from the Triskelion makes it a 1/1
creature with one damage, effectively sending it to the graveyard.
7) Since the one damage was dealt by a creature with the Scythe attached
to it, the Triskelion will return to play under my control with the

Scythe attached to it.
Ack! That's not how Scythe works. It says "Whenever a creature dealt damage
this turn by EQUIPPED CREATURE is put into a graveyard from play," not
"Whenever a creature dealt damage this turn by A CREATURE SCYTHE OF THE
WRETCHED WAS EQUIPPED TO WHEN IT DEALT THE DAMAGE THIS TURN is put into a
graveyard from play,". When the Triskelion is put into the graveyard, it's
asked, "Were you damaged by the creature the Scythe is currently equipping?"
And Skelly answers truthfully, "No I have not."

<<

Post by Francisco Ho
Am I mistaken here and the Triskelion has to have the Scythe attached to
it when it goes to the graveyard or it works as above? Thanks for any
comments anybody can give.

It doesn't have to be equipped with the Scythe to return to play. HOWEVER, it
must have been dealt damage by the current equipee of the Scythe to return,
which, thanks to the rules, CAN'T happen in this case.

Question: Say a Tim pings a 2/2 creature, then gets equipped with a Scythe of
the Wretched. The 2/2 creature gets killed by something else later in the
turn. Does it return to play? (Should be self-evident, but I've gotta
confirm...)


----
"Boy, you left wing liberal socialists sure have tunnel vision."
"You show a very right-wing bias which casts a shadow on any attempt at truth
seeking."
--Excerpts of comments to snopes.com, an urban legends website

[David DeLaney]

Post by Andy Jakcsy
Question: Say a Tim pings a 2/2 creature, then gets equipped with a Scythe of
the Wretched. The 2/2 creature gets killed by something else later in the
turn. Does it return to play? (Should be self-evident, but I've gotta
confirm...)

Yes. "Equipped creature" is Tim. Tim dealt damage to the 2/2 this turn. The
2/2 is getting put into the graveyard. So the Scythe triggers. Similarly,
Thrashing Wumpus for 1; equip the Wumpus with the Scythe; Wrath of God;
all creatures come back into play under your control, one at a time, and
the Scythe moves to each of them in turn, ending up attached to the last
to come back into play (the one whose Scythe-ability that triggered off its
death you placed under all the others on the stack). You even get the Wumpus
back. (You don't get back anything with proBlack or with "prevent all damage
that would be dealt to me", because those weren't actually dealt damage from
the Wumpus...)

Dave

[David DeLaney]

Post by Francisco Ho
(I originally posted this in .strategy, but after thinking about it, I
think I should have posted here instead.)
Hi all,
I was re-reading one of the old articles in Magic's website and
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb89
According to the article, they pumped up Scythe because of the potential
combo with Triskelion. However, won't it work the same way if there is a
non-token */1 creature in play? I might have mis-read Scythe's text,

No. The problem here is that the Scythe has to be on the creature that dealt
the damage in order to trigger. You can kill the nontoken */1 creature with
Trisk damage, sure, and also use the Trisk twice on itself, leaving it 3/3
with 2 damage on it while the Scythe's on it... and the Scythe will trigger
for the */1 dying. On resolution, it will pull the */1 back into play and
move over to equip it, yes, and this will leave the Trisk 1/1 with 2 damage
making it die... but it won't die _with the Scythe on it_, so the Scythe will
not trigger for the +Trisk+ death and will not pull the Trisk back into play.

Post by Francisco Ho
1) Have the Triskelion equiped with the Scythe
2) Remove a +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage to
itself. At this point, it is a 5/5 with one damage.
3) Remove another +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to my opponent. The Triskelion is now a 4/4 with one damage.
4) Remove the last +1/+1 counter from the Triskelion to deal one damage
to the */1 creature. At this point, it deals lethal damage and the */1
creature is sent to the graveyard. The Triskelion, meanwhile, it is a
3/3 creature with one damage.
5) Since the */1 creature was dealt damage by a creature with Scythe
attached to it, it returns to play under my control and Scythe will be
attach to it.

Right.

Post by Francisco Ho
6) However, removing the Scythe from the Triskelion makes it a 1/1
creature with one damage, effectively sending it to the graveyard.

Right. At what time? When state-based effects are checked after the Scythe's
ability has finished resolving. Is there a Scythe on the Trisk at this time?
No, there is not; "equipped creature" is now the */1 creature, which the Scythe
is happily sitting on top of and making a *+2/3 creature. And this creature
has NOT damaged the Trisk this turn at all (it can't have, it's "new"). So
the Scythe sits there blithely as the unequipped Trisk dies, and doesn't
trigger.

Post by Francisco Ho
7) Since the one damage was dealt by a creature with the Scythe attached
to it, the Triskelion will return to play under my control with the
Scythe attached to it.

That's not what the Scythe _says_. The Scythe says, quote, "Whenever a creature
dealt damage by equipped creature this turn is put into a graveyard, ...".

It does _not_ say "Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard this turn which
was dealt damage by a creature that was equipped with this Scythe at the time
the damage was dealt, ...".

What is "equipped creature" at the time the Trisk dies? The *+2/3 is. This
creature hasn't dealt any damage to the Trisk, so the Scythe has no reason to
trigger.

Dave