Trample over Stuffy Doll

[mazion]

I read a post similar to what I'm about to ask already, but it kept
saying "when damage is already on stuffy doll".


Question:

Attack phase begins. I attack with a Ball Lightning. My opponent
blocks Ball Lightning with Stuffy Doll. Does any of the trample damage
go over to my opponent, or does stuffy doll take all 6 damage?

Thanks.

[Zoe Stephenson]

Post by mazion
I read a post similar to what I'm about to ask already, but it kept
saying "when damage is already on stuffy doll".
Attack phase begins. I attack with a Ball Lightning. My opponent
blocks Ball Lightning with Stuffy Doll. Does any of the trample damage
go over to my opponent, or does stuffy doll take all 6 damage?

It's entirely up to you, Stuffy Doll will take between 1 and 6 damage
and the rest goes to defending player.

In general, when you're dealing with trample, you're splitting up the
damage between blocking creatures and defending player in any way you
like, as long as (damage assigned to blocker n) + (damage already on
blocker n) >= (toughness of blocker n) - that is, you need to make sure
that you lethally damage all of the creatures blocking the trampler.

There's nothing 'automatic' about the damage the way there used to be,
it's just a matter of you being able to split some of it off to the
defending player if a certain condition is met in doing so. Also, you
don't worry about whether the damage might get prevented, redirected,
doubled or anything else when you make your assignment.

The "when damage is already on Stuffy Doll" answer is similar - now you
can deliver between 0 and 6 damage to the Stuffy Doll (it's already
lethally damaged, it just doesn't care about it) and the rest to
defending player.

[mazion]

Post by Zoe Stephenson

Post by mazion
I read a post similar to what I'm about to ask already, but it kept
saying "when damage is already on stuffy doll".
Attack phase begins. I attack with a Ball Lightning. My opponent
blocks Ball Lightning with Stuffy Doll. Does any of the trample damage
go over to my opponent, or does stuffy doll take all 6 damage?

It's entirely up to you, Stuffy Doll will take between 1 and 6 damage
and the rest goes to defending player.
In general, when you're dealing with trample, you're splitting up the
damage between blocking creatures and defending player in any way you
like, as long as (damage assigned to blocker n) + (damage already on
blocker n) >= (toughness of blocker n) - that is, you need to make sure
that you lethally damage all of the creatures blocking the trampler.
There's nothing 'automatic' about the damage the way there used to be,
it's just a matter of you being able to split some of it off to the
defending player if a certain condition is met in doing so. Also, you
don't worry about whether the damage might get prevented, redirected,
doubled or anything else when you make your assignment.
The "when damage is already on Stuffy Doll" answer is similar - now you
can deliver between 0 and 6 damage to the Stuffy Doll (it's already
lethally damaged, it just doesn't care about it) and the rest to
defending player.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ:http://www.daeghnao.com/magic/faq/ --
--

Sorry that I'm retarded, Zoe. but lemme phrase it the other way just
so I have a solid understanding.

I have the stuffy doll instead and am blocking against the ball
lightning. I'd like to block the ball lightning with stuffy doll with
the intention of blocking all the damage. (this is the way i was
taught it would work).

Are you saying that I, as the blocker, can not block all 6 damage
automatically, but instead the choice is left up to the attacker to
choose if the remaining 5 damage after the 1 lethal damage to Stuffy
Doll carries over to me or not? And furthermore, that they can choose
to do 3 to stuffy doll and 3 to me, 2 to stuffy doll and 1 to me, 4 to
stuffy doll and 2 to me, etc?

Thanks!

[mazion]

Post by mazion
2 to stuffy doll and 1 to me

I told you I was an R-tard

[David DeLaney]

Post by mazion

Post by Zoe Stephenson
In general, when you're dealing with trample, you're splitting up the
damage between blocking creatures and defending player in any way you
like, as long as (damage assigned to blocker n) + (damage already on
blocker n) >= (toughness of blocker n) - that is, you need to make sure
that you lethally damage all of the creatures blocking the trampler.
There's nothing 'automatic' about the damage the way there used to be,
it's just a matter of you being able to split some of it off to the
defending player if a certain condition is met in doing so. Also, you
don't worry about whether the damage might get prevented, redirected,
doubled or anything else when you make your assignment.
The "when damage is already on Stuffy Doll" answer is similar - now you
can deliver between 0 and 6 damage to the Stuffy Doll (it's already
lethally damaged, it just doesn't care about it) and the rest to
defending player.

Sorry that I'm retarded, Zoe. but lemme phrase it the other way just
so I have a solid understanding.
I have the stuffy doll instead and am blocking against the ball
lightning. I'd like to block the ball lightning with stuffy doll with
the intention of blocking all the damage. (this is the way i was
taught it would work).

Can't. Stuffy Doll came out -after- the middle-of-5th-Edition change to
how Trample works; there's never been a time when the OLD old rules for
Trample, and Stuffy Doll, were both around in the same situation.

In general, when assigning combat damage, the controller of the attacker
or blocker decides how to assign damage FROM the attacker or blocker. If
there's any choice at all (and a lot of the time there isn't, but Trample
is one major situation when a lot of the time there is). If you're blocking
with the Stuffy Doll, then you DON'T get to assign the damage from the
-attacking- creature. (If Stuffy Doll's power is greater than 0, you do
get to assign the damage from it ... though a lot of the time there'll be
no choice about where that damage can go.)

Post by mazion
Are you saying that I, as the blocker, can not block all 6 damage
automatically, but instead the choice is left up to the attacker to
choose if the remaining 5 damage after the 1 lethal damage to Stuffy
Doll carries over to me or not?

Yes. The combatant's controller, in general, decides how to assign damage
_from_ the combatant. Meaning the attacking player decides how to assign
damage from attacking creatures, and defending player decides how to
assign damage from blockers. And, as noted above, much of the time there
isn't actually a choice involved.
But: if more than one blocker blocks the same attacker, now attacking
player has choices to make about where the attacker's damage goes. And:
if the attacker has Trample, attacking player may have choices to make about
where the attacker's damage goes, if there's enough of it. And, finally:
this doesn't come up much, any more, but if any combatant has the "banding"
ability at the time combat damage is assigned? Part of that is "you decide
how the damage from creatures blocking or blocked by this creature is
assigned" - it reverses the normal order. So if your Stuffy Doll has
banding, _then_ you'd decide how to divide the Trample damage from the Ball
Lightning it blocks. But normally, no - that's attacker's domain.

Post by mazion
And furthermore, that they can choose
to do 3 to stuffy doll and 3 to me, 2 to stuffy doll and 1 to me, 4 to
stuffy doll and 2 to me, etc?

Well, the middle one isn't legal, because it didn't divide all 6 of the damage
- they could choose 5 to the Doll and 1 to you, or 2 to the Doll and 4 to you,
though. But other than that, correct - they don't HAVE to assign the _minimum_
amount of combat damage to the blocker; it's just that nearly all the time,
they do so, because that maximizes the damage that gets assigned to you, the
defending player.
If you were known to be holding a Healing Salve, for example, or if there
were a "if a creature you control would be dealt damage, prevent 1 of that
damage" effect around, they might assign more than 1 damage to a generic
0/1 blocker, to make sure the remainder killed it. This doesn't really apply
to Stuffy Doll, since no amount of damage will actually kill it; usually
they'll just aim the minimum of 1 at it, and the rest at you.

Dave

[Chris Mattern]

Post by mazion

Post by Zoe Stephenson

Post by mazion
I read a post similar to what I'm about to ask already, but it kept
saying "when damage is already on stuffy doll".
Attack phase begins. I attack with a Ball Lightning. My opponent
blocks Ball Lightning with Stuffy Doll. Does any of the trample damage
go over to my opponent, or does stuffy doll take all 6 damage?

It's entirely up to you, Stuffy Doll will take between 1 and 6 damage
and the rest goes to defending player.
In general, when you're dealing with trample, you're splitting up the
damage between blocking creatures and defending player in any way you
like, as long as (damage assigned to blocker n) + (damage already on
blocker n) >= (toughness of blocker n) - that is, you need to make sure
that you lethally damage all of the creatures blocking the trampler.
There's nothing 'automatic' about the damage the way there used to be,
it's just a matter of you being able to split some of it off to the
defending player if a certain condition is met in doing so. Also, you
don't worry about whether the damage might get prevented, redirected,
doubled or anything else when you make your assignment.
The "when damage is already on Stuffy Doll" answer is similar - now you
can deliver between 0 and 6 damage to the Stuffy Doll (it's already
lethally damaged, it just doesn't care about it) and the rest to
defending player.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ:http://www.daeghnao.com/magic/faq/ --
--

Sorry that I'm retarded, Zoe. but lemme phrase it the other way just
so I have a solid understanding.
I have the stuffy doll instead and am blocking against the ball
lightning. I'd like to block the ball lightning with stuffy doll with
the intention of blocking all the damage.

You can't. The Stuffy Doll can't force a trampler to assign more than
one damage to it because that's all the toughness it has. Well, if you
had a fast effect to increase its toughness to six, *then* it would
block all the damage.

Post by mazion
(this is the way i was
taught it would work).

I'm sorry, but whoever taught you that was wrong.

Post by mazion
Are you saying that I, as the blocker, can not block all 6 damage
automatically, but instead the choice is left up to the attacker to
choose if the remaining 5 damage after the 1 lethal damage to Stuffy
Doll carries over to me or not?

If the attacker has trample, yes. If the attacker does not have
trample, then it gets no choice and must indeed do all six to the
Stuffy Doll. Ball Lightning, of course, has trample.

Post by mazion
And furthermore, that they can choose
to do 3 to stuffy doll and 3 to me, 2 to stuffy doll and 1 to me, 4 to
stuffy doll and 2 to me, etc?

Again, if the attacking creature has trample, yes.

Post by mazion
Thanks!

[Zoe Stephenson]

[Ball Lightning attacking, Stuffy Doll blocking]

Post by mazion
Sorry that I'm retarded, Zoe. but lemme phrase it the other way just
so I have a solid understanding.
I have the stuffy doll instead and am blocking against the ball
lightning. I'd like to block the ball lightning with stuffy doll with
the intention of blocking all the damage. (this is the way i was
taught it would work).
Are you saying that I, as the blocker, can not block all 6 damage
automatically, but instead the choice is left up to the attacker to
choose if the remaining 5 damage after the 1 lethal damage to Stuffy
Doll carries over to me or not? And furthermore, that they can choose
to do 3 to stuffy doll and 3 to me, 2 to stuffy doll and 1 to me, 4 to
stuffy doll and 2 to me, etc?

Apart from the numerical error that you spotted there, that's entirely
correct. The combat damage _from_ each creature in combat is assigned
as _that creature's controller_ chooses, if there are decisions to be
made about it. This includes damage to multiple blockers from an
attacking creature, damage to defending player that's allowed because
of trample, and even damage from a creature like Thorn Elemental that
can go to either blocking creatures or to the defending player.

There are a couple of ways to make this not be the case. One way is
for at least one of the creatures that could be assigned the damage to
have banding. In this case, that creature's controller chooses how to
assign the damage, rather than the controller of the creature that will
deal the damage. The other way is to have Defensive Formation in
play:

Defensive Formation {W} Enchantment
/ Instead of the attacking player, you assign the combat damage of
creatures attacking you.

[mazion]

Post by Zoe Stephenson
[Ball Lightning attacking, Stuffy Doll blocking]

Post by mazion
Sorry that I'm retarded, Zoe. but lemme phrase it the other way just
so I have a solid understanding.
I have the stuffy doll instead and am blocking against the ball
lightning. I'd like to block the ball lightning with stuffy doll with
the intention of blocking all the damage. (this is the way i was
taught it would work).
Are you saying that I, as the blocker, can not block all 6 damage
automatically, but instead the choice is left up to the attacker to
choose if the remaining 5 damage after the 1 lethal damage to Stuffy
Doll carries over to me or not? And furthermore, that they can choose
to do 3 to stuffy doll and 3 to me, 2 to stuffy doll and 1 to me, 4 to
stuffy doll and 2 to me, etc?

Apart from the numerical error that you spotted there, that's entirely
correct. The combat damage _from_ each creature in combat is assigned
as _that creature's controller_ chooses, if there are decisions to be
made about it. This includes damage to multiple blockers from an
attacking creature, damage to defending player that's allowed because
of trample, and even damage from a creature like Thorn Elemental that
can go to either blocking creatures or to the defending player.
There are a couple of ways to make this not be the case. One way is
for at least one of the creatures that could be assigned the damage to
have banding. In this case, that creature's controller chooses how to
assign the damage, rather than the controller of the creature that will
deal the damage. The other way is to have Defensive Formation in
Defensive Formation {W} Enchantment
/ Instead of the attacking player, you assign the combat damage of
creatures attacking you.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ:http://www.daeghnao.com/magic/faq/ --
--

Thanks for the clarification.

[David DeLaney]

Post by mazion
I read a post similar to what I'm about to ask already, but it kept
saying "when damage is already on stuffy doll".
Attack phase begins. I attack with a Ball Lightning. My opponent
blocks Ball Lightning with Stuffy Doll. Does any of the trample damage
go over to my opponent, or does stuffy doll take all 6 damage?

Depends.

If the Stuffy Doll has not been damaged yet this turn, then at most 5 of
the Trample damage can get assigned straight to defending player; 1 has to
be assigned to Stuffy Doll, because lethal damage for Stuffy Doll - its
toughness minus any damage already on it - is 1, in this case. (Never mind
that that amount of damage won't actually DESTROY it - a lot of stuff could
happen between assignment and dealing, and figuring out how much 'lethal
damage' is only looks at toughness, existing damage, and assigned damage ...
not at abilities the creature may have, or effects that may be affecting it.)
You can, of course, also assign 4 to defending player and 2 to Stuffy Doll,
or 3-3, 2-4, 1-5, or 0-6 ... but the rules don't allow you to try to assign
it "6 to defending player, none to Stuffy Doll", because in that case lethal
damage hasn't been assigned to Stuffy Doll.

If the Stuffy Doll has been damaged earlier this turn (normally I'd add a note
about 'and hasn't gone through regeneration since then' - but Stuffy Doll, if
you think about it, _can't regenerate_), then 'lethal damage' for it is 0 -
it's already got 1 or more damage sitting on it, and a toughness of 1. It
just isn't DYING from it. In this case, you can assign all 6 Trample damage
straight to defending player. Same sort of thing applies if your Ball Lightning
was banded with an attacking Benalish Hero - the Hero must assign its 1
combat damage to the Doll, which is 'lethal damage' apart from the Ball
Lightning's 6.

Nothing _forces_ Stuffy Doll to be assigned all 6 damage in either case - but
it's a _legal_ combat-damage assignment in either case. Just not one which is
usually used by a Ball Lightning's player when it's blocked by a 0/1
creature. (Again, Stuffy Doll being indestructible makes no difference as
to what the legal assignments are. Neither would protection from red, or
Cho-Manno,_Revolutionary's "prevent all damage that would be dealt to me".)

Dave