Memory Jar in multiplayer when one player dies

[Rick Kunkel]

Here's the deal...

I control Memory Jar:

Memory Jar
5
Artifact
T, Sacrifice Memory Jar: Each player removes his or her hand from the
game face down and draws seven cards. At end of turn, each player
discards his or her hand and returns to his or her hand each card he
or she removed from the game this way.

I activate it. Everyone draws their cards. Another player casts a
burn spell at my head and I die. (I had Megrim out, so it only made
sense for him to do so.. ha ha!)

So, the question is this: Will everyone (well, except me, since I'm
dead) still discard their hands at end of turn? I would think yes. A
delayed triggered ability is not an "object" after all. But it also
seems counter-intuitive as well...

Thanks,

Rick Kunkel

[David DeLaney]

Post by Rick Kunkel
Here's the deal...
Memory Jar
5
Artifact
T, Sacrifice Memory Jar: Each player removes his or her hand from the
game face down and draws seven cards. At end of turn, each player
discards his or her hand and returns to his or her hand each card he
or she removed from the game this way.
I activate it. Everyone draws their cards. Another player casts a
burn spell at my head and I die. (I had Megrim out, so it only made
sense for him to do so.. ha ha!)

Okay. 600.4a says all objects owned by you leave the game. 200.8 says that does
not include delayed triggered abilities - they are not on the stack (or
anywhere else, they "just are" until the time comes for them to trigger,
after which they appear on the stack from wherever they were hiding). Spells
and ablities controlled by you on the stack vanish. Change of control effects
which gave you control of stuff end. Then objects still -controlled- by you
leave the game - again, this doesn't include delayed triggered abilities.

The rest of 600.4* also does not seem to do anything to the "At end of turn,
each player..." delayed triggered ability, so the other players are still
gonna get their cards back. (By the time the DTA resolves, you're no longer
a player, so it doesn't try to make you, who have left the game, discard
anything or get any cards back.)

Now lemme see what the question actually was...

Post by Rick Kunkel
So, the question is this: Will everyone (well, except me, since I'm
dead) still discard their hands at end of turn? I would think yes. A
delayed triggered ability is not an "object" after all. But it also
seems counter-intuitive as well...

Yep. The DTA is still floating in the game. (Somewhere.) It didn't leave
with you. In other words, this isn't a way for you to keep them from getting
their hands back, and isn't a way for them to keep their new hands.

Dave

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by David DeLaney
The rest of 600.4* also does not seem to do anything to the "At end of turn,
each player..." delayed triggered ability, so the other players are still
gonna get their cards back. (By the time the DTA resolves, you're no longer
a player, so it doesn't try to make you, who have left the game, discard
anything or get any cards back.)

What about this rule?

600.4c If an object owned by a player who has left the game would be put
into any zone, it leaves the game instead. (This includes abilities that
would be put onto the stack.)
Example: Astral Slide is an enchantment that reads, "Whenever a player
cycles a card, you may remove target creature from the game. If you do,
return that creature to play under its owner's control at end of turn."
During Alex's turn, Bianca uses Astral Slide's ability to remove Alex's
Hypnotic Specter from the game. Before the end of that turn, Bianca
leaves the game. At end of turn, the delayed triggered ability generated
by Astral Slide that would return Hypnotic Specter to play triggers, but
it leaves the game rather than being put on the stack. Hypnotic Specter
never returns to play.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Daniel W. Johnson

Post by David DeLaney
The rest of 600.4* also does not seem to do anything to the "At end of turn,
each player..." delayed triggered ability, so the other players are still
gonna get their cards back. (By the time the DTA resolves, you're no longer
a player, so it doesn't try to make you, who have left the game, discard
anything or get any cards back.)

What about this rule?
600.4c If an object owned by a player who has left the game would be put
into any zone, it leaves the game instead. (This includes abilities that
would be put onto the stack.)

...hm. ...Okay, the ability on the stack that the DTA makes after it
triggers is an "object", by 200.8; but 200.7a says ... okay, who controlled
the source of the ability as the DTA triggered? ... Heh. Looking through
the rules, I don't actually see anything that tells us what the source of a
DTA _is_, or how to 'track it back' to the spell or ability that created the
DTA. But I'm assuming they _mean_ to have it be 'the same as the source of
the spell or ability that created the DTA', they just haven't actually written
that anywhere - in which case the source is the Memory Jar, you use LKI to
find the MJ's controller (since neither it nor its controller is still around),
and that controller is the owner of the DTA but has left the game. So the
DTA leaves the game rather than go onto the stack - _with that interpretation
in the middle_ - and the remaining players do not discard their hands nor
do they get their old hands back.

I submit that that's probably NOT what they wanted, and that quite possibly
they want 600.4c to _not_ apply to delayed triggered abilities that don't
trigger until after their owner has left the game. But that would require
asking R&D/Design, and Zoe'd have to do that. (Similarly, if a Psychic Theft's
caster leaves the game before end of turn, should the card's owner not get
it back? If Sacred Boon's caster leaves the game before end of turn, should
the creature not get its counters? If Suppress' caster leaves the game before
end of the target's next turn, should the player not get his cards back? Etc.)

Dave

[L***@gmail.com]

The Jar effect must be resolved ;)

Post by Rick Kunkel
Here's the deal...
Memory Jar
5
Artifact
T, Sacrifice Memory Jar: Each player removes his or her hand from the
game face down and draws seven cards. At end of turn, each player
discards his or her hand and returns to his or her hand each card he
or she removed from the game this way.
I activate it. Everyone draws their cards. Another player casts a
burn spell at my head and I die. (I had Megrim out, so it only made
sense for him to do so.. ha ha!)
So, the question is this: Will everyone (well, except me, since I'm
dead) still discard their hands at end of turn? I would think yes. A
delayed triggered ability is not an "object" after all. But it also
seems counter-intuitive as well...
Thanks,
Rick Kunkel

[David DeLaney]

Post by L***@gmail.com

Post by Rick Kunkel
I activate it. Everyone draws their cards. Another player casts a
burn spell at my head and I die. (I had Megrim out, so it only made
sense for him to do so.. ha ha!)

The Jar effect must be resolved ;)

That's not the question; the Jar effect resolved ("everyone draws their cards")
before the death.

Dave