+1/+1 counters, "comes into play" effects, and "remove from play"

[Jeff Boes]

I really ought to know the answer to this one, but I'm puzzled.

Say I have an Ironshell Beetle in play ("When ~ comes into play, put a
+1/+1 counter on target creature") which has a +1/+1 counter on it
already. If I control an Astral Slide, and cycle a card, and target the
Ironshell Beetle with the Slide, what happens?

(What I think happens: the Beetle and its +1/+1 counter go out of play,
but come back at end of turn with another +1/+1 counter ready to go onto
any target creature, including itself.)

[William Goeman]

Post by Jeff Boes
I really ought to know the answer to this one, but I'm puzzled.
Say I have an Ironshell Beetle in play ("When ~ comes into play, put
a +1/+1 counter on target creature") which has a +1/+1 counter on it
already. If I control an Astral Slide, and cycle a card, and target
the Ironshell Beetle with the Slide, what happens?

Ironshell Beetle
{1}{G}
Creature -- Insect
1/1
When Ironshell Beetle comes into play, put a +1/+1 counter on target
creature.

When Astral Slide's ability resolves, the Beetle will leave play - any
counters on it will 'fall off.' When Slide's delayed triggered ability
brings it back into play, the Beetle's "When ~this~ comes into play, put
a +1/+1 counter..." ability will trigger again, and you can add a
counter to any target creature (including the Beetle itself, of course).

Post by Jeff Boes
(What I think happens: the Beetle and its +1/+1 counter go out of
play, but come back at end of turn with another +1/+1 counter ready
to go onto any target creature, including itself.)

Mostly correct - just remember it won't ever have 2 counters on it at
one time, given the cards you've mentioned.

-Mierdaan

[Jeff Boes]

At the end of the turn, Ironshell Beetle returns into play as a fresh
new creature with no memory about any past counters on "it" (quotes
because it wasn't on *it*, it was on a different *creature*,
incidentally represented with the same *card*). You can target itself
with its "comes into play" ability, but it will end up with just one
counter, not two. Only phasing remembers the counters on the
permanents, but it is because the rules for phasing explicitly say so.
So you'll be better off putting counters on something that *stays* in
play, not something that slides back and forth...

Thanks; I mis-remembered the bit about counters falling off out-of-play
creatures (I should really try to commit to memory the concept that "once
out of play, on return it's a new creature").

I was trying to create a counter-making engine as a subtheme in a deck
with all the cycling G/W creatures plus Lurghoyfs; I needed a defense so I
added Astral Slide; then I needed an early 2-drop so I looked at the
Beetles. So, my only obstacle is if the Astral Slide and Beetle is the
only things I control.

[Chris Mattern]

Post by Jeff Boes
I really ought to know the answer to this one, but I'm puzzled.
Say I have an Ironshell Beetle in play ("When ~ comes into play, put a
+1/+1 counter on target creature") which has a +1/+1 counter on it
already. If I control an Astral Slide, and cycle a card, and target the
Ironshell Beetle with the Slide, what happens?
(What I think happens: the Beetle and its +1/+1 counter go out of play,
but come back at end of turn with another +1/+1 counter ready to go onto
any target creature, including itself.)

Half-right. The Beetle goes out of play--but it's +1/+1 counter disappears;
creatures forget everything that's been done to them when they leave play.
You do get to place another +1/+1 counter when the Beetle comes back. Note
that if the +1/+1 counter is on anything *besides* the Beetle, it stays
where it is, so it *is* a combo. You just need to be giving the counters
to some other creature.

Chris Mattern

[David DeLaney]

Post by Jeff Boes
I really ought to know the answer to this one, but I'm puzzled.
Say I have an Ironshell Beetle in play ("When ~ comes into play, put a
+1/+1 counter on target creature") which has a +1/+1 counter on it
already. If I control an Astral Slide, and cycle a card, and target the
Ironshell Beetle with the Slide, what happens?

The Beetle leaves play for the RFG zone as part of the Slide's ability's
resolution. The counter on it falls off as this happens - counters fall
off when a card or permanent changes zones. Later, the Slide's ability's
delayed triggered ability's effect brings the Beetle into play from the RFG
zone; since it's coming into play (and not phasing in), it processes all
relevant comes-into-play text, and its triggered ability triggers. (It is,
by the way, a Completely Different Beetle afterwards, though the permanent
is represented by the same -card-.)

Post by Jeff Boes
(What I think happens: the Beetle and its +1/+1 counter go out of play,
but come back at end of turn with another +1/+1 counter ready to go onto
any target creature, including itself.)

Right. It recalls nothing about being in play previously, and has no idea
who the Beetle's ability's last target was. As far as it's concerned it's
shiny and new, and ready to go as usual for coming into play.

Dave

[David DeLaney]

The Beetle is removed from the game. Any enchantments on it are buried, any
equipment on it "falls off" and remains in play (I'm supposing, but I believe
that would be a good supposition),

...and Paul's article on Equipment says so specifically in the first paragraph.
So yes, that's the case.

and any counters on it disappear, NEVER TO BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

(ooo, spoo-ky)

Dave