Screams From Within

[Dan Bressler]

Earlier tonight I played the following:

Card Name: Screams from Within
Cost: 1BB
Type: Enchantment — Aura
Pow/Tgh:
Rules Text: Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets -1/-1.
When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard, return
Screams from Within from your graveyard to play.
Set/Rarity: Darksteel uncommon

and when the creature I enchanted was later destroyed, I announced I was
returning it targetting another creature my opponent controlled (a
Sporeback Troll with 1 counter). In response, he used

Card Name: Plaxcaster Frogling
Cost: 1GU
Type: Creature — Frog Mutant
Pow/Tgh: 0/0
Rules Text: Graft 3 (This creature comes into play with three +1/+1
counters on it. Whenever another creature comes into
play, you may move a +1/+1 counter from this creature
onto it.)
2: Target creature with a +1/+1 counter on it can’t
be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
Set/Rarity: Dissension uncommon

to make his creature untargetable.

Question: Must I then attach the Screams to another creature (he and I
both had other creatures in play), or would the Screams be shunted to the
graveyard for having an illegal target?

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by Dan Bressler
Card Name: Screams from Within
Cost: 1BB
Type: Enchantment - Aura
Rules Text: Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets -1/-1.
When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard, return
Screams from Within from your graveyard to play.
Set/Rarity: Darksteel uncommon
and when the creature I enchanted was later destroyed, I announced I was
returning it targetting another creature my opponent controlled (a
Sporeback Troll with 1 counter).

Returning, yes. Targetting, no.

212.4e An Aura spell requires a target, which is restricted by its
enchant ability. Other restrictions can limit what a permanent can be
enchanted by. If an Aura is coming into play by any other means than
being played and the effect putting it into play doesn't specify what it
will enchant, the player putting it into play chooses a permanent for it
to enchant as it comes into play. The player must choose a legal
permanent according to the Aura's enchant ability. If an Aura is coming
into play from the stack and there is no legal permanent for it to
enchant, the Aura is put into its owner's graveyard instead of coming
into play. If an Aura is coming into play from any zone other than the
stack and there is no legal permanent for it to enchant, the Aura
remains in the zone from which it attempted to move instead of coming
into play. The same rule applies to moving an Aura from one permanent to
another: The permanent to which the Aura is to be moved must be able to
be enchanted by it. If it can't, the Aura doesn't move.

Post by Dan Bressler
In response, he used
Card Name: Plaxcaster Frogling
Cost: 1GU
Type: Creature - Frog Mutant
Pow/Tgh: 0/0
Rules Text: Graft 3 (This creature comes into play with three +1/+1
counters on it. Whenever another creature comes into
play, you may move a +1/+1 counter from this creature
onto it.)
2: Target creature with a +1/+1 counter on it can't
be the target of spells or abilities this turn.
Set/Rarity: Dissension uncommon
to make his creature untargetable.
Question: Must I then attach the Screams to another creature (he and I
both had other creatures in play), or would the Screams be shunted to the
graveyard for having an illegal target?

That ability wouldn't interfere with the return of that Aura. Anyway,
you don't choose the enchanted creature until you are actually putting
the Aura into play:

If an Aura is coming into play by any other means than being played and
the effect putting it into play doesn't specify what it will enchant,
the player putting it into play chooses a permanent for it to enchant AS
IT COMES INTO PLAY.

[Peter Cooper Jr.]

| Screams from Within 1BB Enchantment -- Aura
| Enchant creature
| Enchanted creature gets -1/-1.
| When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from
| Within from your graveyard to play.

Post by Dan Bressler
and when the creature I enchanted was later destroyed, I announced I was
returning it targetting another creature my opponent controlled (a
Sporeback Troll with 1 counter).

There's no targeting there. The triggered ability goes on the stack,
sure, but there's no "target" word there. The only things that target
are things that say target, and Auras while they are on the stack.

Post by Dan Bressler
In response, he used

| Plaxcaster Frogling 1GU Creature -- Frog Mutant
| 0/0
| Graft 3 (This creature comes into play with three +1/+1 counters on
| it. Whenever another creature comes into play, you may move a +1/+1
| counter from this creature onto it.)
| 2: Target creature with a +1/+1 counter on it can't be the target of
| spells or abilities this turn.

Post by Dan Bressler
to make his creature untargetable.
Question: Must I then attach the Screams to another creature (he and I
both had other creatures in play), or would the Screams be shunted to the
graveyard for having an illegal target?

Neither. There's no target involved here at all. When the triggered
ability resolves, you return Screams from Within from your graveyard
to play. Since it's an Aura coming into play, you choose something for
it to enchant at this time.

Hope that this helps. Please feel free to post again if you have any
more questions.

[David DeLaney]

Screams from Within 1BB Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature Enchanted creature gets -1/-1. / When enchanted creature is
put into a graveyard, return ~ from your graveyard to play.
and when the creature I enchanted was later destroyed, I announced I was
returning it targetting another creature my opponent controlled (a
Sporeback Troll with 1 counter).

The return -does not target-. The triggered ability that'll return it does
use the stack, so can be responded to ... but you don't decide (if there's
a choice) what creature it's coming back into play on until resolution.

In response, he used

Plaxcaster Frogling 1GU Creature - Frog Mutant
0/0 Graft 3 (*) 2: Target creature with a +1/+1 counter on it can't be the
target of spells or abilities this turn.

...okay ...

to make his creature untargetable.

Was this his only creature? Cuz, as noted above, until the triggered ability
resolves, he's just guessing where it'll come back. He CAN do this in response,
or Boomerang his creature, or (most usefully) give it "This can't be
_enchanted_" somehow... What he can't do is wait until resolution, see which
creature you have decided the Screams is coming back on, THEN try to do
something 'in response'. At the time you're making that choice, a) nobody,
not even you, has priority, and b) the Screams triggered ability is already
resolving.

Plus which, as also noted above, whether or not the creature can be the
target of spells or abilities is irrelevant for "can I put Screams From
Within into play -enchanting- this creature?". Aura -spells- are targetted.
Auras sitting in play attached to something are not. Putting an Aura into
play attached to a creature is not, by itself, targetting anything.

Question: Must I then attach the Screams to another creature (he and I
both had other creatures in play), or would the Screams be shunted to the
graveyard for having an illegal target?

Neither. His action had no influence on which creature(s) you could decide
to put the Screams into play on, assuming he did this at a time when it WAS
legal for him to do (meaning before resolution, so before you decided where
it was going to come into play).

Now if he had instead given the creature Protection from Black in response?
Which _includes_ "This creature can't be enchanted by black Auras or equipped
by black Equipment" as well as "This creature can't be the target of black
spells or of abilities from black sources"? Then you wouldn't have been able
to later pick that creature as one to put the Screams back into play attached
to. If he had given ALL of his creatures proBlack in response, say with
Akroma's Blessing? Then you would've had to pick one of YOUR creatures to put
it into play on - notice Screams does NOT say ", you may return ...".
But, again, he CANNOT wait to see what creature you pick to put the Screams
into play on, THEN try to give that creature proBlack. He simply does not have
priority during the Screams' ability's resolution. (And you do have to give
him time for responses before trying to resolve the triggered ability - you
can't rush into picking the creature to try to leave no time for him to cast
the Akroma's Blessing, for example.)

Dave

[Dan Bressler]

***@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote in news:***@gatekeeper.vic.com:


OK, I see where I went wrong now. I confused returning it to play with the
whole procedure for playing the card, to wit,

"Target a creature as you play this. This card comes into play attached to
that creature."

My thanks go out to everyone who explained this. Note to self: Next time,
read the frelling card. ^_^

[David DeLaney]

Post by Dan Bressler
OK, I see where I went wrong now. I confused returning it to play with the
whole procedure for playing the card, to wit,
"Target a creature as you play this. This card comes into play attached to
that creature."

Oh noes! Someone got confused by reminder text? Why, that's NEVER happened
before!!1! ...But yep, this didn't have anything to do with an Aura spell.

Post by Dan Bressler
My thanks go out to everyone who explained this. Note to self: Next time,
read the frelling card. ^_^

Reading the card: good.
Reading the Oracle wording: better.
Pointing out the actual wording to the head judge: PRICELESS

Dave

[Zoe Stephenson]

Screams from Within {1}{B}{B} Enchantment - Aura
/ Enchant creature
/ Enchanted creature gets -1/-1.
/ When enchanted creature is put into a graveyard, return Screams from
Within from your graveyard to play.

Post by Dan Bressler
and when the creature I enchanted was later destroyed,

Note that if the creature disappears while the Screams from Within
spell is on the stack targeting it, then the Screams from Within is
countered for missing target. Its last triggered ability won't trigger
in this case. I assume by 'later destroyed', that the Screams from
Within has already resolved and come into play enchanting the creature
it targeted.

Post by Dan Bressler
I announced I was
returning it targetting another creature my opponent controlled (a
Sporeback Troll with 1 counter).

You don't target anything. You choose the creature to enchant while
you're in the process of moving the card from the graveyard to play.

Post by Dan Bressler
In response, he used

Plaxcaster Frogling {1}{G}{U} Creature - Frog Mutant 0/0
/ Graft 3
/ {2}: Target creature with a +1/+1 counter on it cant be the target of
spells or abilities this turn.

Post by Dan Bressler
to make his creature untargetable.

Which won't stop auras from being able to enchant it; it'll only stop
you from playing abilities and spells (including aura cards as spells)
that target it.

Post by Dan Bressler
Question: Must I then attach the Screams to another creature (he and I
both had other creatures in play), or would the Screams be shunted to the
graveyard for having an illegal target?

Neither. Here's the process that Screams from Within employs:

- Some cost is payed or some effect is resolved that causes the
enchanted creature to go to the graveyard. The Screams from Within
card triggers.

- Someone tries to gain priority. The Screams from Within is put into
the graveyard, as it has nothing to enchant. Then you put the Screams
from Within triggered ability on the stack. You don't need to announce
what you intend to enchant at this stage.

- Someone now has priority, and both players will have a chance to
respond to the Screams from Within triggered ability, to affect which
creatures are legal for a black aura to enchant. For example, one of
the possible creatures could gain protection from black.

- Eventually, the Screams from Within triggered ability resolves, and
puts the Screams from Within card that was tracked to the graveyard
into play. While it's in the middle of coming into play, you have to
choose something for it to enchant. If your opponent has no creatures,
or only has creatures with protection from black or from enchantments,
then you'll have to choose one of your own. The fact that some of the
opponent's creatures might not be legal targets for spells or abilities
doesn't stop you from choosing them as the enchantee of your aura -
this isn't a spell or ability targeting the creature.

- Once the Screams from Within is in play, the triggered ability is
done resolving, and active player starts to gain priority. At this
point, you check state-based effects: if the enchanted creature has 0
toughness from the Screams from Within's -1/-1, then it will go to the
graveyard at this point. There's no point between your choosing the
creature and the application of the -1/-1 modification in which any
player gets to play spells or abilities.