Decree of Justice + Stifle

[Jonathan]

A friend and I are debating the rules of Stifling the Decree of Justice
cycling ability. He says that if I cycle Decree, and he uses Stifle to stop
me from making tokens, that I'll take mana burn (assuming I have no other
outlets for the mana)
Is there a step between putting mana in my pool and putting it into the
Decree's cycling ability? I'd think I pay the costs and announce it all at
once, but he says there's a step in the middle where Stifle leaves me with a
pool full of mana, and no ability on the Decree to put it into.
Can you guys explain it? Thanks!
-Jonathan

Stifle - U
Instant
Counter target activated or triggered ability. (Mana abilities can't be
countered.)

Decree of Justice - XX2WW
Sorcery
Put X 4/4 white Angel creature tokens with flying into play. Cycling 2WW
When you cycle Decree of Justice, you may pay . If you do, put X 1/1 white
Soldier creature tokens into play.

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by Jonathan
A friend and I are debating the rules of Stifling the Decree of Justice
cycling ability. He says that if I cycle Decree, and he uses Stifle to stop
me from making tokens, that I'll take mana burn (assuming I have no other
outlets for the mana)

Only if you put mana into your pool before the cycle-triggered ability
resolves.

Post by Jonathan
Is there a step between putting mana in my pool and putting it into the
Decree's cycling ability? I'd think I pay the costs and announce it all at
once, but he says there's a step in the middle where Stifle leaves me with a
pool full of mana, and no ability on the Decree to put it into.

What "it"? The cycling activated ability is separate from the
cycle-triggered ability. You don't pay the {X} for the cycle-triggered
ability until it resolves.

Decree of Justice
{X}{X}{2}{W}{W}
Sorcery
Put X 4/4 white Angel creature tokens with flying into play.
Cycling {2}{W}
When you cycle Decree of Justice, you may pay {X}. If you do, put X 1/1
white Soldier creature tokens into play.

Post by Jonathan
Can you guys explain it? Thanks!

You don't pay the {X} until the cycle-triggered ability resolves. There
is therefore no reason to play mana abilities for that until the
cycle-triggered ability is resolving.

413.2e If an effect gives a player the option to pay mana, he or she may
play mana abilities as part of the action. No other spells or abilities
can be played during resolution.

Full timing details without countering (assuming your turn):

1. You get priority and play cycling ability of Decree of Justice. Pay
{2}{W} and discard it. This triggers the second ability.
2. You would get priority, but the triggered ability goes on the stack.
There are no payments or decisions to be made for it at this time.
3. You get priority and pass.
4. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
5. The triggered ability resolves. You pay {X} (possibly playing mana
abilities to get mana for it). You get X Soldier tokens.
6. You get priority and pass.
7. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
8. Your Decree of Justice cycling ability resolves. You draw a card.
9. You get priority ....

Full timing details with countering (assuming your turn):

1. You get priority and play cycling ability of Decree of Justice. Pay
{2}{W} and discard it. This triggers the second ability.
2. You would get priority, but the triggered ability goes on the stack.
There are no payments or decisions to be made for it at this time.
3. You get priority and pass.
4. Your opponent gets priority and plays Stifle. The target is the
triggered ability that entered the stack in step 2. He pays the {U} for
that spell at this time.
5. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
6. You get priority and pass.
7. Your opponent's Stifle resolves. Your triggered ability is countered
and removed from the stack.
8. You get priority and pass.
9. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
10. Your Decree of Justice cycling ability resolves. You draw a card.
11. You get priority ....

Either way, you could play mana abilities for the {X} during one of the
first three steps, but there is generally no need to do so.

[David de Kloet]

Post by Daniel W. Johnson

Post by Jonathan
A friend and I are debating the rules of Stifling the Decree of Justice
cycling ability. He says that if I cycle Decree, and he uses Stifle to stop
me from making tokens, that I'll take mana burn (assuming I have no other
outlets for the mana)

<snip>

Post by Daniel W. Johnson
Either way, you could play mana abilities for the {X} during one of the
first three steps, but there is generally no need to do so.

But if you want to play a Ritual to have more mana to make more tokens,
you have to play it before the cycling-triggered-ability resolve with
the possibility of being burned.

David

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by David de Kloet

Post by Daniel W. Johnson
Either way, you could play mana abilities for the {X} during one of the
first three steps, but there is generally no need to do so.

But if you want to play a Ritual to have more mana to make more tokens,
you have to play it before the cycling-triggered-ability resolve with
the possibility of being burned.

But that's not a mana ability. What you describe is a risk whenever a
Ritual is used under Sixth Edition rules, no matter what the mana will
be spent on.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Jonathan
A friend and I are debating the rules of Stifling the Decree of Justice
cycling ability. He says that if I cycle Decree, and he uses Stifle to stop
me from making tokens, that I'll take mana burn (assuming I have no other
outlets for the mana)

Nope; not necessary. You are allowed to get mana _while_ the triggered
ability is resolving, since its effect asks for a mana payment of X. You
may of course get mana -before- it resolves, and if you do and he Stifles
the ability after that, you'll have mana floating in your pool. This will
not in itself cause manaburn, since manaburn ONLY takes place as a phase
ends; you could use that mana to cast another spell, or use an activated
ability.

But he has to decide whether or not to Stifle the ability BEFORE it resolves,
while you're allowed to get the mana to pay with -while- it's resolving.
Thus he can't make you take manaburn later that phase.

Post by Jonathan
Is there a step between putting mana in my pool and putting it into the
Decree's cycling ability?

If you get mana while the triggered ability is resolving [note that this
is different than the Cycling ability itself, which is paid for on
announcement], it's too late for him to Stifle it. He can't do anything
_while_ it's resolving; you can only do what it tells you to, plus - since
its effect asks for a mana payment from you - optionally use mana abilities.

Post by Jonathan
I'd think I pay the costs and announce it all at
once, but he says there's a step in the middle where Stifle leaves me with a
pool full of mana, and no ability on the Decree to put it into.

Nope. He's thinking you have to get the mana in response to the ability,
which you don't have to. If you DO, he can Stifle the ability after you get
the mana but before the ability resolves. But if you wait until it's resolving,
and get the mana right when it asks for the payment of X, it's too late for
him to respond - responses have to be done -before- resolution can start.

Dave

[David DeLaney]

Post by Jonathan
A friend and I are debating the rules of Stifling the Decree of Justice
cycling ability. He says that if I cycle Decree, and he uses Stifle to stop
me from making tokens, that I'll take mana burn (assuming I have no other
outlets for the mana)

Nope; not necessary. You are allowed to get mana _while_ the triggered
ability is resolving, since its effect asks for a mana payment of X. You
may of course get mana -before- it resolves, and if you do and he Stifles
the ability after that, you'll have mana floating in your pool. This will
not in itself cause manaburn, since manaburn ONLY takes place as a phase
ends; you could use that mana to cast another spell, or use an activated
ability.

But he has to decide whether or not to Stifle the ability BEFORE it resolves,
while you're allowed to get the mana to pay with -while- it's resolving.
Thus he can't make you take manaburn later that phase.

Post by Jonathan
Is there a step between putting mana in my pool and putting it into the
Decree's cycling ability?

If you get mana while the triggered ability is resolving [note that this
is different than the Cycling ability itself, which is paid for on
announcement], it's too late for him to Stifle it. He can't do anything
_while_ it's resolving; you can only do what it tells you to, plus - since
its effect asks for a mana payment from you - optionally use mana abilities.

Post by Jonathan
I'd think I pay the costs and announce it all at
once, but he says there's a step in the middle where Stifle leaves me with a
pool full of mana, and no ability on the Decree to put it into.

Nope. He's thinking you have to get the mana in response to the ability,
which you don't have to. If you DO, he can Stifle the ability after you get
the mana but before the ability resolves. But if you wait until it's resolving,
and get the mana right when it asks for the payment of X, it's too late for
him to respond - responses have to be done -before- resolution can start.

Dave