timing for instants

[OhioGuy]

I've only played a few games, but a friend and I have run into some issues
with instants. Let's say I play a card that is supposed to instantly take
effect. Does this happen as soon as I pay for and show the card, when I
slap it down on the table, or what?

If it is supposed to happen instantly, then does my opponent have a chance
to negate the card, or has the effect already happened by the time he reads
it and gets to consider the effects?

[David DeLaney]

Post by OhioGuy
I've only played a few games, but a friend and I have run into some issues
with instants. Let's say I play a card that is supposed to instantly take
effect.

Okay, stop. Spell type "instant" does NOT mean ANYTHING like "instantly takes
effect" - get that thought right away from you.

Instants, Sorceries, and (nonmana) abilities all use the same timing rules once
they're on the stack; the differences between them are mainly that Sorceries
can be played (announced) at significantly fewer times than the others, and
playing an ability doesn't put a -card- on the stack. (And abilities are not
spells, and vice-versa.)

First: "playing" a spell means announcing the spell. This is the first part
of its lifecycle, and involves taking the card from (usually) your hand and
putting it on the stack, picking targets, and paying costs - in that order.
(Some other specific things can get done then too; see 409.1a-1h in the rules.)
Nothing Happens Yet - you've only announced the spell. You get priority again
after you play the spell, so you can take another action, or pass, while the
spell sits there on the stack waiting to resolve.

Any number of things can get added to the stack. It's not size-limited or
anything. "How do I get stuff OFF the stack?" Well ... if both (or all) players
pass in succession? The top thing on the stack resolves, whatever it is. (It
can be a spell, an ability, or combat damage.) This means:
if it's got targets, it REchecks them for legality; if NONE are still legal,
it gets countered. (You can't 'partially counter' a spell or ability - either
none are still legal and it gets completely countered, or one or more are legal
and it resolves but doesn't affect the illegal ones.) [If it had no targets,
this bit gets skipped and it goes straight to resolving.]
Then if it didn't get countered, it resolves: you follow the instructions
given in its effect, in the order listed, generally. (See section 413 in the
rules for details.) NOW is when Stuff Happens.

Post by OhioGuy
Does this happen as soon as I pay for and show the card, when I
slap it down on the table, or what?

Nope. The only things that 'resolve immediately' and/or 'can't be responded to'
are special actions ... and, of these, the one you'll encounter MOST often is
using a mana ability. (And of those, you'll most often encounter 'tapping a
land for mana'.) Spells and nonmana abilities NEVER 'resolve immediately';
there's always a time when they could be responded to, while they're sitting
on the stack waiting for everyone to decide they're done adding things to the
stack on top of them. [Spells with split second can't be responded to - but
all players still have to pass in succession to get one to resolve.]

Basically, it's "I show the card, pick targets if needed, and pay for it.
... Now it's on the stack. Any responses?". If there's responses, you deal
with them BEFORE getting back to the original spell - responses go on the stack
on _top_ of whatever's there already, and resolving something off the stack
always resolves the -topmost- thing.
If there's _no_ responses - from you or anyone else - _then_ you resolve
the spell, and it takes effect.

Post by OhioGuy
If it is supposed to happen instantly, then does my opponent have a chance
to negate the card, or has the effect already happened by the time he reads
it and gets to consider the effects?

The "instantly" is confusing you here. An Instant spell doesn't mean "it
happens instantly"; basically it means, rather, "you can announce this spell
any time you have priority, even as a response to something else on the stack".
[Other kinds of spells have to be played with the stack empty, in your own
main phase, when you have priority; they can't respond to anything.]

[Also, don't start trying to think about the 'speed' of the spell or anything
like that - the concept literally doesn't make sense in Magic's timing system,
and trying to use it invariably gets new players confused.]

If you play (announce) a spell, both you and your opponent generally get at
least one chance to respond to that spell before the spell can even try to
resolve. (Spells with Split Second are the exception here; also, note that
special actions, listed in the rules in section 408.1i and 408.2, don't use
the stack, so can't be responded to ... but there are no spells that are
special actions.)

Dave

[l0ne]

Post by OhioGuy
Does this happen as soon as I pay for and show the card, when I
slap it down on the table, or what?

I advise you to re-read the advanced parts of the manual, especially the
parts regarding The Stack.

Basically it works like this:
- you show the card, pay for it, choose how much is X if it's in the
cost, and choose any targets. The card then goes On The Top of The
sometimes-not-so-metaphorical Stack.

- you get to do this any number of times for different cards, if you
want to play more than one, or pass when you have none to play.

- as you pass, your opponent gets to do this too, or pass.

- then it's your turn again, and so on.

- when both players pass without either one playing, the Top Thing on
The Stack resolves. It's taken away from the stack and what happens to
it depends on what it is (creatures, enchantments, artifacts go in play,
instants and sorceries go in the graveyard, the rest goes *poof*).

- your turn again to do things.

Seems complicated? It isn't, really -- it rarely comes up that you have
to do all of this explicitely as most of the time one of you will play a
thing and the other will do nothing. Try it and you'll see.


-- AND NOW...
-- LOTS OF NOT-SO-BASIC EXTRAS:

* Everything you play except lands goes On The Stack, but only instants
can be played at any time -- creatures, enchantments, sorceries and
artifacts can only be played when Nothing in On The Stack, and then only
during your turn (your opponent can't play them during your turn and
vice versa).
This means you try to play a creature and, before it comes into play,
your opponent can play a last-second instant (for example, to destroy a
creature before the other creature you are playing gives it protection,
or to counter your creature spell).

* Lands never go On The Stack. To play one you show one from hand, you
put it in play, done (can't do that if you already played one this turn,
though).

* Also, activated abilities (those that say "Cost: Do something") and
triggered abilities (those that say "Whenever X happens, do something")
also go On The Stack (so both of you can use instants and abilities
before they do their thing). They don't have cards attached to them,
though -- you'll have to remember of them (not hard).

* Cards that go on the stack are called "spells". Since abilities don't
have cards attached to them, they aren't spells, so if a card tells you
to "counter" or do something else to a spell it can't touch an ability
(very useful at times).

* If you look up this in the rules, you will see that showing a card,
paying costs and putting it on the stack is referred to as "playing" a
spell; the act of it doing its thing is referred to "resolving" a spell.

[l0ne]

Post by l0ne
- your turn again to do things.

(Side note: when the both of you pass without playing *and* there's
nothing left On The Stack, the game continues -- the current step ends,
so this might end the first main phase, or end combat, or end the turn
and so on and so on.)

[Zoe Stephenson]

Post by OhioGuy
I've only played a few games,

Welcome to the game.

Post by OhioGuy
but a friend and I have run into some issues
with instants. Let's say I play a card that is supposed to instantly take
effect. Does this happen as soon as I pay for and show the card, when I
slap it down on the table, or what?

Usually, when you slap it down on the table, all you do at that point
is choose targets and pay costs. That's the action of 'playing' the
spell. It stays where it is until everyone's had a good look round
and had a chance to play more instants and abilities, and once that's
all out of the way it resolves. That's the point at which it has
its effect.

Here's an example. Suppose I have in play some Grizzly Bears.

Grizzly Bears {1}{G} Creature - Bear 2/2

I attack with them, and some time during the combat, my opponent
wants to play Shock on the Grizzly Bears to kill them.

Shock {R} Instant
/ Shock deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

However, I am cunning, and I have a Giant Growth in my hand.

Giant Growth {G} Instant
/ Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.

If my opponent plays the Shock, it sits waiting for responses before it
can resolve. I can respond with my Giant Growth, which also sits
waiting for its own responses. Assume that nobody responds, then it
resolves and makes my Grizzly Bears 5/5 before we decide we're no
longer responding to the Shock. Then the Shock can resolve, and it
deals 2 damage to the Grizzly Bears.

Suppose that I didn't anticipate the Shock, and I played the Giant
Growth out to make my Grizzly Bears into a 5/5 to get more damage
through to the opponent. Well, the Giant Growth sits around waiting
for responses, and the opponent can respond with Shock. Now the Shock
will resolve first and kill the Grizzly Bears, then the Giant Growth
gets countered because the Grizzly Bears are no longer there in play.

Post by OhioGuy
If it is supposed to happen instantly, then does my opponent have a chance
to negate the card, or has the effect already happened by the time he reads
it and gets to consider the effects?

The way it works is with a zone called the stack and a concept of
priority. Here's roughly how it works:

At any point in the game, at most one player has priority. (At some
points, such as while a spell or ability is resolving, no player has
priority).

The player with priority can play a spell or ability, or pass, or
perform other actions like turning a face-down creature face up.

At the beginning of each phase and step, the active player (player
whose turn it is) gets priority.

Whenever a player with priority plays a spell or ability, that player
gets priority back after the spell or ability has been played.

When a player passes, the next player in turn order gains priority.

The stack is where spells and abilities hang about when they're played
and waiting to resolve.

Whenever all of the players pass in succession without any intervening
actions, instead of the next player gaining priority, the most recently
played spell or ability on the stack resolves. We often call this the
'top' object on the stack, using the analogy of a physical stack where
the last thing you put on the stack is the first thing you remove. If
there is nothing on the stack when players pass in succession like
this, you move to the next step or phase or turn, whichever it is
that's next in the turn sequence.

After a spell or ability resolves, the active player gets priority.

As you can see, the system makes sure that everyone gets a chance to
play spells and abilities in response.

Hope that helps, if you get stuck you could always come back with a
specific example or two to go through.

[ds]

Post by Zoe Stephenson

Post by OhioGuy
I've only played a few games,

Welcome to the game.

Post by OhioGuy
but a friend and I have run into some issues
with instants. Let's say I play a card that is supposed to instantly take
effect. Does this happen as soon as I pay for and show the card, when I
slap it down on the table, or what?

Usually, when you slap it down on the table, all you do at that point
is choose targets and pay costs. That's the action of 'playing' the
spell. It stays where it is until everyone's had a good look round
and had a chance to play more instants and abilities, and once that's
all out of the way it resolves. That's the point at which it has
its effect.
Here's an example. Suppose I have in play some Grizzly Bears.
Grizzly Bears {1}{G} Creature - Bear 2/2
I attack with them, and some time during the combat, my opponent
wants to play Shock on the Grizzly Bears to kill them.
Shock {R} Instant
/ Shock deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
However, I am cunning, and I have a Giant Growth in my hand.
Giant Growth {G} Instant
/ Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
If my opponent plays the Shock, it sits waiting for responses before it
can resolve. I can respond with my Giant Growth, which also sits
waiting for its own responses. Assume that nobody responds, then it
resolves and makes my Grizzly Bears 5/5 before we decide we're no
longer responding to the Shock. Then the Shock can resolve, and it
deals 2 damage to the Grizzly Bears.
Suppose that I didn't anticipate the Shock, and I played the Giant
Growth out to make my Grizzly Bears into a 5/5 to get more damage
through to the opponent. Well, the Giant Growth sits around waiting
for responses, and the opponent can respond with Shock. Now the Shock
will resolve first and kill the Grizzly Bears, then the Giant Growth
gets countered because the Grizzly Bears are no longer there in play.

Post by OhioGuy
If it is supposed to happen instantly, then does my opponent have a chance
to negate the card, or has the effect already happened by the time he reads
it and gets to consider the effects?

The way it works is with a zone called the stack and a concept of
At any point in the game, at most one player has priority. (At some
points, such as while a spell or ability is resolving, no player has
priority).
The player with priority can play a spell or ability, or pass, or
perform other actions like turning a face-down creature face up.
At the beginning of each phase and step, the active player (player
whose turn it is) gets priority.
Whenever a player with priority plays a spell or ability, that player
gets priority back after the spell or ability has been played.
When a player passes, the next player in turn order gains priority.
The stack is where spells and abilities hang about when they're played
and waiting to resolve.
Whenever all of the players pass in succession without any intervening
actions, instead of the next player gaining priority, the most recently
played spell or ability on the stack resolves. We often call this the
'top' object on the stack, using the analogy of a physical stack where
the last thing you put on the stack is the first thing you remove. If
there is nothing on the stack when players pass in succession like
this, you move to the next step or phase or turn, whichever it is
that's next in the turn sequence.
After a spell or ability resolves, the active player gets priority.
As you can see, the system makes sure that everyone gets a chance to
play spells and abilities in response.
Hope that helps, if you get stuck you could always come back with a
specific example or two to go through.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.daeghnao.com/magic/faq/ --
--

What if I want to play two sorceries one after another? Can I do that, or do
I have to wait for the other player(s) to respond to my first spell, and
then if they don't I can slap the second one down?

[l0ne]

Post by ds
What if I want to play two sorceries one after another? Can I do that, or do
I have to wait for the other player(s) to respond to my first spell, and
then if they don't I can slap the second one down?

You have to wait.

Let's say we're in your main step and you have two sorceries in hand.
You play one (we assume you are able to play both), and it goes on the
stack.

Now, once something is on the stack, a) the second sorcery cannot be
played (the stack isn't empty) and b) both players have to pass in
succession. So you do (what we will presume is) the only sensible thing
and pass. (You could have played an instant or ability on top of the
sorcery, but we'll keep this simple ;D.)

Now, your opponent can play -- since it's not his turn, he can only play
instants and abilities (ie "respond").

If he passes without doing so, the sorcery resolves.
If he plays something and then passes, it's up to you again -- you can
"respond" to the "response" if you will. And so on.

Every time the both of you pass without playing anything, the top thing
on the stack resolves -- eventually, your sorcery will, too, emptying
the stack; and sooner or later you'll get priority again, allowing you
to play the second sorcery and repeat all of the above.

[David DeLaney]

Post by ds
What if I want to play two sorceries one after another? Can I do that, or do
I have to wait for the other player(s) to respond to my first spell, and
then if they don't I can slap the second one down?

Sorceries have an extra couple restrictions that instants don't have. The
relevant one here is that you can't play a sorcery unless the stack is _empty_.

Meaning that if you play a sorcery, then there's something on the stack now ...
so it's not empty. So another sorcery can't respond. Instants or abilities
can respond just fine. But you have to wait till the stack clears out - until
everything on it resolves, gets countered, or otherwise leaves the stack -
before you could play another sorcery.

So no, you couldn't play one sorcery and then play another "in response" -
you do have to wait for the sorcery to resolve (and for anything done in
response to it to resolve, first). And yes, this means the other player
(and you) can do responses to your first sorcery, and have them resolve,
before you ever get the chance to start off (play, announce) a second sorcery.

Same limitation goes for Creature, Artifact, and Enchantment spells, by the
way. Lands aren't spells, and don't use the stack, but also can only be played
any time you could play a sorcery - so you can't play a land 'in response to'
something else.

Dave

[Zoe Stephenson]

Post by ds
What if I want to play two sorceries one after another?

You play the first sorcery when the stack is empty, in your own main
phase. Then you deal with responses, where players play and resolve
instants and abilities. Then you resolve that first sorcery. Now the
stack is empty again, and it's still your own main phase, so you can
play the other sorcery. You also deal with any instants and abilities
here, putting them on the stack and resolving the most recent each time
all players pass, until players are done responding to that second
sorcery. Then, you resolve the second sorcery.

Post by ds
Can I do that, or do
I have to wait for the other player(s) to respond to my first spell, and
then if they don't I can slap the second one down?

You have to wait to see if anyone responds, deal with any responses,
and then *resolve the first sorcery*, only then will the stack be
empty for the second sorcery.

If you suggest some particular spells, we could go through a scenario
if that would help?