Sylvan Library / Rowen et al.

[Dennis Daiber]

Hi NG!

I'm tinkering with card draw effects and I need some issues to be resolved.
I have this green Deck in which I need access to card draw badly. So I addes
some Sylvan Libraries and some Rowen. To make things easier, I assume that
even with multiple Rowens in play, I still only reveal the first card drawn,
so I for the sake of simplicity let's assume I have in play two Sylvans and
one Rowen.

Sylvan Library
{1}{G}
Enchantment
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do,
choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay
4 life or put the card on top of your library.

Rowen
{2}{G}{G}
Enchantment
Reveal the first card you draw each turn. Whenever you reveal a basic land
card this way, draw a card.



I'd play it like this:

1) Draw a card and reveal that card for Rowen. If it's a basic land, draw
another card.
2) Draw two extra cards for Library One.
3) Draw two extra cards for Library Two.
I now have 5 to 6 cards in hand.
4) I now put back 4 of those cards drawn back ontop of my library in any
order.
Is that correct?


Now I want to know how (if) thast procedure (if correct, which I believe it
is) changes if I had Teferi's Puzzle Box in play, also.
By the way - if I had two puzzle Boxes, would I repeat the Puzzling process
for each Puzzle Box in play?
Teferi's Puzzle Box
{4}
Artifact
At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player puts the cards in
his or her hand on the bottom of his or her library in any order, then draws
that many cards.

Also - if I had a Howling Mine (_or_ Anvil of Bogardan), this would alter
the procedure above like this, I assume:

Howling Mine
{2}
Artifact
At the beginning of each player's draw step, if Howling Mine is untapped,
that player draws a card.

Anvil of Bogardan
{2}
Artifact
Players have no maximum hand size.
At the beginning of each player's draw step, that player draws a card, then
discards a card from his or her hand.

1) Draw a card for Howling Mine (or the Anvil) and reveal that card for
Rowen. If it's a basic land, draw another card (Discard a card, if the Anvil
is in play for the Mine).
2) Draw my regular card.
3) Draw two extra cards for Library One.
4) Draw two extra cards for Library Two.
I now have 6 to 7 cards in hand.
5) I now put back 4 of those cards drawn back ontop of my library in any
order.
Is that correct?


I'd appreciate any answers...

g'night,

/Dennis

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by Dennis Daiber
Hi NG!
I'm tinkering with card draw effects and I need some issues to be resolved.
I have this green Deck in which I need access to card draw badly. So I addes
some Sylvan Libraries and some Rowen. To make things easier, I assume that
even with multiple Rowens in play, I still only reveal the first card drawn,

Yes. The first card you draw is the first card you draw.

Post by Dennis Daiber
1) Draw a card and reveal that card for Rowen. If it's a basic land, draw
another card.
2) Draw two extra cards for Library One.
3) Draw two extra cards for Library Two.
I now have 5 to 6 cards in hand.
4) I now put back 4 of those cards drawn back ontop of my library in any
order.
Is that correct?

No.

First, you draw a card and reveal it for Rowen. If it's a basic land,
its triggered ability triggers along with those from the two Sylvan
Libraries. Those two or three triggers go on the stack in the order
that you choose and then resolve one at a time. When each one resolves,
it resolves *completely*. Unless you pay life for a Sylvan Library
ability, you will not have more than 4 drawn cards in your hand at a
time. You will be performing the following actions in the order you
chose (i.e., the reverse of the order in which you placed them on the
stack), and you will complete each action before proceeding to the next:

You may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn
this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of
your library.

You may draw two cards. If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn
this turn. For each of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of
your library.

Draw a card. (Only if this triggered, of course.)

Post by Dennis Daiber
Now I want to know how (if) thast procedure (if correct, which I believe it
is) changes if I had Teferi's Puzzle Box in play, also.

The Teferi's Puzzle Box triggered ability gets added to the above list.
Note that if this resolves before a Sylvan Library triggered ability,
all the cards drawn that way are eligible to be put back.

Post by Dennis Daiber
By the way - if I had two puzzle Boxes, would I repeat the Puzzling process
for each Puzzle Box in play?

Yes. It doesn't say anything like "unless another artifact named
Teferi's Puzzle Box is in play".

Post by Dennis Daiber
Also - if I had a Howling Mine (_or_ Anvil of Bogardan), this would alter
1) Draw a card for Howling Mine (or the Anvil) and reveal that card for
Rowen. If it's a basic land, draw another card (Discard a card, if the Anvil
is in play for the Mine).
2) Draw my regular card.

No. Drawing your regular card happens before anything else in the draw
step.

304. Draw Step

304.1 First, the active player draws a card. This special action doesn't
use the stack. (This is a reversal of previous rules.) Then any
abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other
abilities that have triggered go on the stack. Then the active player
gets priority and players may play spells and abilities.

Post by Dennis Daiber
3) Draw two extra cards for Library One.
4) Draw two extra cards for Library Two.
I now have 6 to 7 cards in hand.
5) I now put back 4 of those cards drawn back ontop of my library in any
order.
Is that correct?

No. The actions you can take in the middle of resolving a spell/ability
(e.g., between the "draw two cards" and the "put the card on top of your
library" of Sylvan Library) are very limited. You can't stick part of
the resolution of some other ability in there.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Dennis Daiber
I'm tinkering with card draw effects and I need some issues to be resolved.
I have this green Deck in which I need access to card draw badly. So I addes
some Sylvan Libraries and some Rowen. To make things easier, I assume that
even with multiple Rowens in play, I still only reveal the first card drawn,

Right. Each causes you to reveal the same card; if that card's a basic land
card, they then all trigger and you draw a card for each Rowen you control.

Post by Dennis Daiber
so I for the sake of simplicity let's assume I have in play two Sylvans and
one Rowen.

Okay.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Sylvan Library >{1}{G} >Enchantment
At the beginning of your draw step, you may draw two cards. If you do,
choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each of those cards, pay
4 life or put the card on top of your library.

Note that your "normal" draw will occur before either of the Library abilities
even goes on the stack, let alone resolves. So it will usually be the one
Rowen makes you reveal; Rowen's ability, if it triggers, will go on the stack
at the same time as both SL abilities, and if you order them so it resolves
before one or both of them, you'll have an extra card in your hand drawn this
turn. (If it doesn't trigger, you won't have to worry about this.)

Post by Dennis Daiber
Rowen >{2}{G}{G} >Enchantment
Reveal the first card you draw each turn. Whenever you reveal a basic land
card this way, draw a card.
1) Draw a card and reveal that card for Rowen. If it's a basic land, draw
another card.
2) Draw two extra cards for Library One.
3) Draw two extra cards for Library Two.

Note that the original draw does NOT use the stack, while Rowen's triggered
ability does, and the SL abilities both do. Also note that you can order
them this way by putting Rowen's on top.

ALSO note that you MUST deal with putting back cards, or paying life,
for Library 1 _as its ability is resolving_; you have no way at all to
"delay dealing with that until Library 2's ability resolves" or to have
Library 2's ability resolve WHILE Library 1's ability is in the process
of resolving. So you can't possibly get 6 cards in hand to choose from
using these three components. You'll have three or four cards to pick from
when Library 1 resolves; when Library 2 resolves later, you'll draw -the
same two cards you put back for Library 1- if you put two back.

Post by Dennis Daiber
I now have 5 to 6 cards in hand.
4) I now put back 4 of those cards drawn back ontop of my library in any
order.
Is that correct?

No; you can't possibly stop resolving library 1, pass priority, have opponent
pass priority, and start resolving library 2, while Library 1's ability is
still in the middle of resolving. You have to FULLY resolve each ability
before any other ability or spell on the stack can even think about trying
to resolve.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Now I want to know how (if) thast procedure (if correct, which I believe it
is) changes if I had Teferi's Puzzle Box in play, also.

It's not correct. Teferi's Puzzle Box adds another triggered ability; when
_that_ ability resolves, which will be at a separate time from any Rowen
or SL ability, you pop your hand onto the bottom of your library and draw
that many cards. As with the others, you can order this on the stack as you
please among the other triggered abilities you control that are going on
the stack at that time.

Post by Dennis Daiber
By the way - if I had two puzzle Boxes, would I repeat the Puzzling process
for each Puzzle Box in play?

Yes; both would trigger at the same time, both would go on the stack at
the same time along with the SLs and the Rowen(s) (if it/they trigger), and
both would resolve separately.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Also - if I had a Howling Mine (_or_ Anvil of Bogardan), this would alter

It adds yet another triggered ability that goes on the stack at the same
time, and resolves separately from any other spell or ability on the stack,
as is usual for spells/abilities that use the stack.

Post by Dennis Daiber
1) Draw a card for Howling Mine (or the Anvil) and reveal that card for
Rowen.

No. Your normal card draw comes before ANY draw-step triggered abilities ever
go on the stack at all, because it's done as draw step starts and does NOT
use the stack. Your normal draw comes first; if you've drawn no cards in
upkeep, it's the card Rowen(s) reveal(s).

Post by Dennis Daiber
If it's a basic land, draw another card (Discard a card, if the Anvil
is in play for the Mine).
2) Draw my regular card.

Nope. Regular card comes first. Also, you can't resolve the Anvil's ability
at the same time you're resolving the Rowen ability; the Anvil's draw-and-
discard is separate from any and all other draws or activated/triggered
abilities.

Post by Dennis Daiber
3) Draw two extra cards for Library One.
4) Draw two extra cards for Library Two.
I now have 6 to 7 cards in hand.
5) I now put back 4 of those cards drawn back ontop of my library in any
order.

Again, no; you can't possibly "split up" a Library's resolution. As the
Library ability resolves, you draw two, then put back 0 1 or 2 and pay some
life; other spells and abilities on the stack cannot possibly be resolving at
this time.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Is that correct?

No.

Dave

[Dennis Daiber]

Post by Dennis Daiber
I'm tinkering with card draw effects and I need some issues to be
resolved. I have this green Deck in which I need access to card draw
badly. So I addes some Sylvan Libraries and some Rowen. To make
things easier, I assume that even with multiple Rowens in play, I
still only reveal the first card drawn,

[triggered abilities]

Post by Dennis Daiber
Is that correct?

No.
Dave

I confess that my understanding of the Stack is less then... good. However,
I hope that I got it figured out right this time. Please excuse my random
capitalization of Nowns, I guess I can't quite purge my German heritage from
my use of the English language.

So... if I had two Sylvans, a Rowen and one Puzzle Box, could I

1) Reveal the first card drawn (my "normal" draw) for Rowen. It's a land, so
I put the ability on the Stack.
2) Draw two extra cards for Sylvan 1.
3) Put two of the three back ontop of my lib..
4) Put the Puzzle Box on stack, let it resolve, draw "X=cards in hand" new
cards.
5) Let Rowen's ability resolve and draw a card.
6) Let the second Sylvan Library resolve and draw two cards?

Question is: when it comes to putting cards back ontop of my lib from the
Second Sylvan's ability, could I include the card drawn from Rowen's ability
into the choice of which cards to put back onto my library? Sylvan Library
says "...If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each
of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library", so
technically the cards drawn with the Puzzle Box would be included in that
choice also, wouldn't they?
So if I had had 7 cards in hand a the beginning of my draw step, that means
I could chose from as many as 10 cards (7 + 1 Rowen + 2 Sylvan2) which to
put back, right? I'm confusing myself...

If I messed it up again this time, well... chucks, then I just don't seem to
get it. However, in that case, could you maybe kindly point out the best way
to place all these on the stack to give me maximum choice?


Thanks,
Dennis

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by Dennis Daiber
So... if I had two Sylvans, a Rowen and one Puzzle Box, could I
1) Reveal the first card drawn (my "normal" draw) for Rowen. It's a land, so
I put the ability on the Stack.
2) Draw two extra cards for Sylvan 1.
3) Put two of the three back ontop of my lib..
4) Put the Puzzle Box on stack, let it resolve, draw "X=cards in hand" new
cards.
5) Let Rowen's ability resolve and draw a card.
6) Let the second Sylvan Library resolve and draw two cards?

No, right after the draw, ALL those triggered abilities go on the stack
(including Rowen's, if it triggers). You don't let one or two of them
resolve before putting another one (e.g., Puzzle Box) on the stack.

304. Draw Step

304.1 First, the active player draws a card. This special action doesn't
use the stack. (This is a reversal of previous rules.) Then any
abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other
abilities that have triggered go on the stack. Then the active player
gets priority and players may play spells and abilities.

410.2. Whenever a game event or game state matches a triggered ability's
trigger event, that ability triggers. When a phase or step begins, all
abilities that trigger "at the beginning of" that phase or step trigger.
The ability doesn't do anything when it triggers but automatically puts
the ability on the stack as soon as a player would receive priority. The
ability is controlled by the player who controlled its source at the
time it triggered. It has the text of the ability that created it, and
no other characteristics.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Question is: when it comes to putting cards back ontop of my lib from the
Second Sylvan's ability, could I include the card drawn from Rowen's ability
into the choice of which cards to put back onto my library? Sylvan Library
says "...If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each
of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library", so
technically the cards drawn with the Puzzle Box would be included in that
choice also, wouldn't they?

Are they cards? Are they in your hand? Were they drawn this turn? If
the answers to all these questions are "yes", they are "cards in your
hand drawn this turn".

Post by Dennis Daiber
So if I had had 7 cards in hand a the beginning of my draw step, that means
I could chose from as many as 10 cards (7 + 1 Rowen + 2 Sylvan2) which to
put back, right? I'm confusing myself...

If they resolve off the stack in the right order, yes.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Dennis Daiber
So... if I had two Sylvans, a Rowen and one Puzzle Box, could I
1) Reveal the first card drawn (my "normal" draw) for Rowen. It's a land, so
I put the ability on the Stack.
2) Draw two extra cards for Sylvan 1.
3) Put two of the three back ontop of my lib..
4) Put the Puzzle Box on stack, let it resolve, draw "X=cards in hand" new
cards.
5) Let Rowen's ability resolve and draw a card.
6) Let the second Sylvan Library resolve and draw two cards?

Again, no, but you're closer. _All_ these triggered abilities go on the stack
at exactly the same time.

The 'normal' card draw takes place as draw step starts, before you put
draw-step-triggered abilities on the stack. Rowen will trigger, if it does,
at this point (if it hasn't already this turn). So you have the Rowen ability,
both Sylvan abilities, and the Puzzle Box ability all waiting to go on the
stack at once; since you control them all you choose their order on the stack.
(Remembering that they'll resolve top-to-bottom.)

You _can_ order them on the stack so that, bottom to top, you have SL #2,
Rowen, Puzzle Box, and SL #1, and they resolve in the reverse order from
that, which gives the results you have up there. But you don't wait for one
to resolve then put the next on the stack; three of these trigger "at the
beginning of your draw step" specifically, and the other one triggers off
something taking place right then, so all of them go on the stack at the
same time.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Question is: when it comes to putting cards back ontop of my lib from the
Second Sylvan's ability, could I include the card drawn from Rowen's ability
into the choice of which cards to put back onto my library?

Yes; in fact, you can't _not_ include it among "cards drawn this turn". Given
the order above, _all_ the cards in your hand are "drawn this turn" - since
the Puzzle Box put your previous cards elsewhere and made you draw that many
- so you choose, in this situation, two cards from among your whole hand to
put back, or choose one and pay 4 life, or choose none and pay 8 life.

Post by Dennis Daiber
Sylvan Library
says "...If you do, choose two cards in your hand drawn this turn. For each
of those cards, pay 4 life or put the card on top of your library", so
technically the cards drawn with the Puzzle Box would be included in that
choice also, wouldn't they?

Right.

Post by Dennis Daiber
So if I had had 7 cards in hand a the beginning of my draw step, that means
I could chose from as many as 10 cards (7 + 1 Rowen + 2 Sylvan2) which to
put back, right? I'm confusing myself...

Right.

Post by Dennis Daiber
If I messed it up again this time, well... chucks, then I just don't seem to
get it. However, in that case, could you maybe kindly point out the best way
to place all these on the stack to give me maximum choice?

You only messed up a tiny bit this time, and didn't affect the outcome by
doing so; all of them go on the stack at once, but (since you control all
the sources) in an order of your choosing.

If it were opponent's Puzzle Box, his triggered ability has to go on the
stack on top of -all- of yours, on your turn. (And vice versa, on his turn.)
For triggered abilities going on the stack at the same time, that is.

Dave