Seedborn Muse

[pi]

Hi,

I've been looking for an answer to this question and maybe someone over here
can help me.

What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's untap
step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps? Will I be able
to tap lands between the untaps? Does having multiple Seedborn Muses in play
have any advantage at all?

I want to know this because I'm curious how much advantage I could get from
a Seedborn Muse imprinted on a Soul Foundry.

Thanks for any help!

pi

[Sorcier]

Post by pi
What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's untap
step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps?

My suspicion is yes, but I'll let an expert confirm that.

Post by pi
Will I be able
to tap lands between the untaps?

If you can play fast effects you can tap mana sources for them.
If you can't, I'm less sure.
If you can't play fast effects but can tap land them you'll need
to make sure you have something to spend that mana on during the upkeep
phase.

Post by pi
Does having multiple Seedborn Muses in play
have any advantage at all?

Well, multiple creatures are often an advantage, both as more attack
options, more blocking options, and lower chance of losing your only
muse.

Post by pi
I want to know this because I'm curious how much advantage I could get from
a Seedborn Muse imprinted on a Soul Foundry.

Good one.
If nothing else, you'll be able to bring out a new muse after your
old one gets toasted.

Hm, also see if this helps:

303. Upkeep Step

303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at
the beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered
during the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling
Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and
players may play spells and abilities.

So, the active player will get a chance to play fast effects.
I'm assuming if he passes, the inactive one does, and that both
get the chance to respond to other triggers and fast effects.
But again, wait for an expert to correct me or agree with me...

Also so definition of priority:

Priority
The player who has the option to play a spell or ability at any given
time has priority. See rule 408, "Timing of Spells and Abilities."
Each time a spell, _an_ability_(other than a mana ability),
^^^^^^^^^^^^
or combat damage resolves, and at the beginning of most phases and
steps,
the active player receives priority. After a player plays a spell,
ability,
or land, or takes a special action, he or she again receives priority.
_When_a_player_passes,_his_or_her_opponent_receives_priority.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If both players pass in succession, the spell, ability, or combat
damage on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase
or step ends.
Each time a player would get priority, all applicable state-based
effects
resolve first as a single event (see rule 420). Then, if any new
state-based
effects have been generated, they resolve as a single event. This
process
repeats until no more applicable state-based effects are generated. Then
triggered abilities are added to the stack (see rule 410). These steps
repeat in order until no further state-based effects or triggered
abilities
are generated.

If I'm reading everything right, you're good to go!

[pi]

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's untap
step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps?

My suspicion is yes, but I'll let an expert confirm that.

Post by pi
Will I be able
to tap lands between the untaps?

If you can play fast effects you can tap mana sources for them.
If you can't, I'm less sure.

Same here.

Post by Sorcier
If you can't play fast effects but can tap land them you'll need
to make sure you have something to spend that mana on during the upkeep
phase.

Nemata, grove guardian, master of the hunt, centaur glade, or if you're not
mono green, mobilization or dragon roost for example.

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
Does having multiple Seedborn Muses in play
have any advantage at all?

Well, multiple creatures are often an advantage, both as more attack
options, more blocking options, and lower chance of losing your only
muse.

Post by pi
I want to know this because I'm curious how much advantage I could get from
a Seedborn Muse imprinted on a Soul Foundry.

Good one.
If nothing else, you'll be able to bring out a new muse after your
old one gets toasted.

Well, actually if I can play fast effects during the untap phase in response
to the untaps the number of muses I have will raise exponentially each turn.
If a new muse created during the untap step will also trigger, it will even
cause an invinite loop (but I'm pretty sure that won't happen).

Post by Sorcier
303. Upkeep Step
303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at
the beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered
during the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling
Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and
players may play spells and abilities.
So, the active player will get a chance to play fast effects.
I'm assuming if he passes, the inactive one does, and that both
get the chance to respond to other triggers and fast effects.
But again, wait for an expert to correct me or agree with me...

This sound like things that trigger during the untap step resolve during the
upkeep step??? :S

Post by Sorcier
Priority
The player who has the option to play a spell or ability at any given
time has priority. See rule 408, "Timing of Spells and Abilities."
Each time a spell, _an_ability_(other than a mana ability),
^^^^^^^^^^^^
or combat damage resolves, and at the beginning of most phases and
steps,
the active player receives priority. After a player plays a spell,
ability,
or land, or takes a special action, he or she again receives priority.
_When_a_player_passes,_his_or_her_opponent_receives_priority.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If both players pass in succession, the spell, ability, or combat
damage on top of the stack resolves or, if the stack is empty, the phase
or step ends.
Each time a player would get priority, all applicable state-based
effects
resolve first as a single event (see rule 420). Then, if any new
state-based
effects have been generated, they resolve as a single event. This
process
repeats until no more applicable state-based effects are generated. Then
triggered abilities are added to the stack (see rule 410). These steps
repeat in order until no further state-based effects or triggered
abilities
are generated.
If I'm reading everything right, you're good to go!

I think so to, thanks!
It would be nice if someone could confirm this.

pi

[Sorcier]

Post by pi

Post by Sorcier
303. Upkeep Step
303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at
the beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered
during the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling
Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and
players may play spells and abilities.
So, the active player will get a chance to play fast effects.
I'm assuming if he passes, the inactive one does, and that both
get the chance to respond to other triggers and fast effects.
But again, wait for an expert to correct me or agree with me...

This sound like things that trigger during the untap step resolve during the
upkeep step??? :S

Yeah, my bad.
I meant to search for untap and got discombobulated.
But it is an example of being able to respond to triggers which was what
I was looking for...

[David DeLaney]

Post by pi
Well, actually if I can play fast effects during the untap phase

Untap step, and you can't. Sorry. See 302.1-3; 303.* aren't relevant here
because they're talking about upkeep step, not untap step.

Post by pi
This sound like things that trigger during the untap step resolve during the
upkeep step??? :S

Yes. They can't go on the stack during untap, since nobody gets priority
during that step, and since triggered abilities ONLY go on the stack as
part 2 of "a player gets priority". Anything that triggers during untap
step waits until the beginning of upkeep step to go on the stack.

Dave

[Lee Sharpe]

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's
untap step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps?

My suspicion is yes, but I'll let an expert confirm that.

Sorry, but no.

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
Will I be able
to tap lands between the untaps?

If you can play fast effects you can tap mana sources for them.
If you can't, I'm less sure.
If you can't play fast effects but can tap land them you'll need
to make sure you have something to spend that mana on during the
upkeep phase.

You can't play anything during the untap step. Also, upkeep is a step, not
a phase. If it were a seperate phase, then mana couldn't carry over. (It
can, but there's not really a way to get the mana in the first place, short
of an untap replacement effect of some kind.)

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
Does having multiple Seedborn Muses in play
have any advantage at all?

Well, multiple creatures are often an advantage, both as more attack
options, more blocking options, and lower chance of losing your only
muse.

Well, right. I assumed he meant simply in terms of the ability, though, in
which case, there is no advantage.

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
I want to know this because I'm curious how much advantage I could
get from a Seedborn Muse imprinted on a Soul Foundry.

Good one.
If nothing else, you'll be able to bring out a new muse after your
old one gets toasted.
303. Upkeep Step
303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at
the beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered
during the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling
Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and
players may play spells and abilities.
So, the active player will get a chance to play fast effects.
I'm assuming if he passes, the inactive one does, and that both
get the chance to respond to other triggers and fast effects.
But again, wait for an expert to correct me or agree with me...

The above is true, but isn't relevent to the Seaborn Muse. Seaborn Muse's
ability doesn't trigger, it just modifies what untaps during the untap step.

Post by Sorcier
If I'm reading everything right, you're good to go!

If Seaborn Muse's ability was triggered, you're thinking would be correct,
but triggered abilities use "when", "whenever", or "at". This uses none of
those.

[Sorcier]

Post by Lee Sharpe
Seaborn Muse's
ability doesn't trigger, it just modifies what untaps during the untap step.
If Seaborn Muse's ability was triggered, you're thinking would be correct,
but triggered abilities use "when", "whenever", or "at". This uses none of
those.

Point.
Should have caught that sooner. ;(

[David DeLaney]

Post by Lee Sharpe
The above is true, but isn't relevent to the Seaborn Muse.

'Seedborn', shirley?

Post by Lee Sharpe
If Seaborn Muse's ability was triggered, you're thinking would be correct,
but triggered abilities use "when", "whenever", or "at". This uses none of
those.

And if Seedborn Muse's ability were triggered, it wouldn't be able to have
any effect at all during anyone's untap step.

Dave "I suppose everyone's excited for the upcoming prerelease..." DeLaney

[David DeLaney]

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's untap
step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps?

My suspicion is yes, but I'll let an expert confirm that.

Nope.

Post by Sorcier

Post by pi
Will I be able
to tap lands between the untaps?

If you can play fast effects you can tap mana sources for them.
If you can't, I'm less sure.
If you can't play fast effects but can tap land them you'll need
to make sure you have something to spend that mana on during the upkeep
phase.

No spells or abilities can be played during untap step, because nobody
gets priority during that step.

Post by Sorcier
303. Upkeep Step

Since he's asking about untap step, this probably isn't relevant.

Dave

[Lee Sharpe]

Post by pi
Hi,
I've been looking for an answer to this question and maybe someone
over here can help me.
What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's
untap step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps?
Will I be able to tap lands between the untaps? Does having multiple
Seedborn Muses in play have any advantage at all?
I want to know this because I'm curious how much advantage I could
get from a Seedborn Muse imprinted on a Soul Foundry.

You never get priority in the untap steps. Having more than one Seaborn
Muse in play is completely redundant.

[David DeLaney]

Post by pi
I've been looking for an answer to this question and maybe someone over here
can help me.
What if I have multiple Seedborn Muses in play during an opponnent's untap
step, will I be able to play fast effects between the untaps?

Nope.

Post by pi
Will I be able to tap lands between the untaps?

Nope.

Post by pi
Does having multiple Seedborn Muses in play
have any advantage at all?

They have to get rid of all of them to stop the untapping from happening.
That's about it.

Nobody gets priority, for any reason, at any time at all, during an untap
step. So spells and abilities can't be played, state-based effects aren't
checked, and triggered abilities can't go on the stack, during an untap step.
So no, having multiple Muses generally confers no extra usability of the
untapped stuff over having just one.

Post by pi
I want to know this because I'm curious how much advantage I could get from
a Seedborn Muse imprinted on a Soul Foundry.

One is as good as a dozen, and vice versa, in general. But having more than
one means opponent has to kill them all... plus, of course, they are 2/4
creatures quite apart from any other qualities they might have.

Dave

[pi]

Everybody thanks for the answers!