Shuffling Tokens into your Library

[d***@yahoo.com]

What happens if an ability causes a token to be shuffled back into your
library?

I know the token will be permanently removed from the game but my
question is "Will the library get shuffled anyway?"

This can matter for a couple of reasons. There was an artifact whose
name escapes me that penalized the opponent each time they shuffled
their library. Also, there may be times that you want to shuffle your
libary.

The reason this came up is that I was testing a deck that used Followed
Footsteps and in one game, that ended up enchanting my Cerulean Sphinx.

[Erich Leibrock]

Post by d***@yahoo.com
What happens if an ability causes a token to be shuffled back into your
library?

The token dissipates into thin air, as if it never existed.

Post by d***@yahoo.com
I know the token will be permanently removed from the game but my
question is "Will the library get shuffled anyway?"

Aye, it does. Why should it not be?

Post by d***@yahoo.com
This can matter for a couple of reasons. There was an artifact whose
name escapes me that penalized the opponent each time they shuffled
their library. Also, there may be times that you want to shuffle your
libary.

Took a while, but finally found it: Psychogenic Probe.

Psychogenic Probe
2
Artifact
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player to shuffle his or her library,
Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to him or her.

Post by d***@yahoo.com
The reason this came up is that I was testing a deck that used Followed
Footsteps and in one game, that ended up enchanting my Cerulean Sphinx.

Oh dear..

Cerulean Sphinx
4UU
Creature - Sphinx
5/5
Flying
U: Cerulean Sphinx's owner shuffles it into his or her library.

Followed Footsteps
3UU
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a token into play that's a copy of
enchanted creature.

Ah, I see. Yes, if you make a copy of a Sphinx, you can use the copy's
ability to shuffle it back in - which would have the effect of simply
shuffling the library, as the copy isn't a card. And yes, if a Probe is in
play, the shuffler will take damage.

Erich

[d***@yahoo.com]

Post by Erich Leibrock

Post by d***@yahoo.com
What happens if an ability causes a token to be shuffled back into your
library?

The token dissipates into thin air, as if it never existed.

Post by d***@yahoo.com
I know the token will be permanently removed from the game but my
question is "Will the library get shuffled anyway?"

Aye, it does. Why should it not be?

Post by d***@yahoo.com
This can matter for a couple of reasons. There was an artifact whose
name escapes me that penalized the opponent each time they shuffled
their library. Also, there may be times that you want to shuffle your
libary.

Took a while, but finally found it: Psychogenic Probe.
Psychogenic Probe
2
Artifact
Whenever a spell or ability causes a player to shuffle his or her library,
Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to him or her.

Post by d***@yahoo.com
The reason this came up is that I was testing a deck that used Followed
Footsteps and in one game, that ended up enchanting my Cerulean Sphinx.

Oh dear..
Cerulean Sphinx
4UU
Creature - Sphinx
5/5
Flying
U: Cerulean Sphinx's owner shuffles it into his or her library.
Followed Footsteps
3UU
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a token into play that's a copy of
enchanted creature.
Ah, I see. Yes, if you make a copy of a Sphinx, you can use the copy's
ability to shuffle it back in - which would have the effect of simply
shuffling the library, as the copy isn't a card. And yes, if a Probe is in
play, the shuffler will take damage.

Thanks!

Followed Footsteps would make a good SCS card. It's too bad it's rare
instead of uncommon. Lot's of things you can do with it. Good for
killing annoying legends like Agrus Kos, Tolsimir, Circu, etc.

[Risser]

Yes, the token is actually shuffled into your library, but then, before
anyone gets priority, it's dissipated by state-based effects.
Similarly if the token goes to the graveyard or is removed from play.
***
420.5f A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist.
***

Basically, there's no difference between that and having it disappear,
but (a) the library does get shuffled, (b) if the token has a
leaves-play ability, it triggers, and (c) if you somehow had something
that triggered off something going into your library, it would trigger.

I don't think there is anything like (c), but there are things that
trigger if a creature goes into your graveyard, and token creatures
count for that, even if they suddenly disappear immediately after due
to state-based effects.

Also, I think there was one corner case where it actually made a
difference, but I can't remember what it was. It may have had
something to do with an empty library and an effect that put the token
into the library, then made you draw a card (Polymorph? No, that's
destroy...). Since the state-based effects don't run during the
resolution of a spell, you'd be forced to draw the token, which would
then disappear from your hand the moment state-based effects happened.

Something like that, but as I said, I can't remember exactly. I'm sure
some of the veterans could maybe come up with something involving
Gaea's Blessing, Reclaim, Humility, Opalescence, Volrath's Shapeshifter
and Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker or some such convolutions where it would
matter.

Peter

PS: The shuffle-pain card is Psychogenic Probe. One of the cards on my
"please, oh please, build a deck around me" list. Maybe in league with
Underworld Dreams and Megrim. Haw.
***
Psychogenic Probe {2}
Artifact
Mirrodin Rare
- Whenever a spell or ability causes a player to shuffle his or her
library, Psychogenic Probe deals 2 damage to him or her.
***

[Peter Cooper Jr.]

Post by Risser
Also, I think there was one corner case where it actually made a
difference, but I can't remember what it was. It may have had
something to do with an empty library and an effect that put the token
into the library, then made you draw a card (Polymorph? No, that's
destroy...). Since the state-based effects don't run during the
resolution of a spell, you'd be forced to draw the token, which would
then disappear from your hand the moment state-based effects happened.

Well, that can't be right. If you were to shuffle a token into a
library, and draw a card before SBEs are checked, you'd draw the top
card, which can't be the token, since a token isn't a card.

Post by Risser
Something like that, but as I said, I can't remember exactly. I'm sure
some of the veterans could maybe come up with something involving
Gaea's Blessing, Reclaim, Humility, Opalescence, Volrath's Shapeshifter
and Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker or some such convolutions where it would
matter.

If you have all those on the table, shuffling your library is the
least of the judge's worries. :)

[David DeLaney]

Post by Risser
Also, I think there was one corner case where it actually made a
difference, but I can't remember what it was.
It may have had
something to do with an empty library and an effect that put the token
into the library, then made you draw a card (Polymorph? No, that's
destroy...).

Sorry, could you repeat those last three words? I'm hard of seeing - draw
a -what-?

Post by Risser
Since the state-based effects don't run during the
resolution of a spell, you'd be forced to draw the token,

A token isn't a card. So this could not make you draw the token, ever. We
don't have anything that could. (Similarly, stuff that mills your library
always mills _cards_ into your graveyard, stuff that looks into your
graveyard is looking for cards there, stuff that reveals things in
your library reveals -cards- from it, etc.)

Post by Risser
Something like that, but as I said, I can't remember exactly. I'm sure
some of the veterans could maybe come up with something involving
Gaea's Blessing, Reclaim, Humility, Opalescence, Volrath's Shapeshifter
and Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker or some such convolutions where it would
matter.

It's possible we could. I'm not going to try right now though.

Dave

[Risser]

That makes sense.
Thanks,
Peter

[David DeLaney]

Post by d***@yahoo.com
What happens if an ability causes a token to be shuffled back into your
library?

The token leaves play, and TECHNICALLY gets shuffled in, then ceases to
exist. In practice, since doing that could damage your cards, you just
shuffle the library but do not physically shuffle in the card or object
representing the token.

Post by d***@yahoo.com
I know the token will be permanently removed from the game but my
question is "Will the library get shuffled anyway?"

Yes. Whether or not a positive number of cards is getting shuffled in doesn't
change the fact that you have to -shuffle- the library to -shuffle in- some
number of cards.

Post by d***@yahoo.com
The reason this came up is that I was testing a deck that used Followed
Footsteps and in one game, that ended up enchanting my Cerulean Sphinx.

Can also happen with a token Serra Avatar, or others. And yes, you shuffle
the library, though shuffling the actual token into it is a Bad Idea because
you have to know where it is to make it Evaporate from the state-based effect.

Dave