Protection from [Quality] and Flying.

[Michael Keith]

I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)

Unfortunately she doesn't see the logic in the rules for creatures
with Protection from [quality] and flying creatures.

Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon. She says that if I
attack she can block with the Silver Knight because it has protection
from red. I have shown her the rules about flying and protection from
[quality]. But she still maintains that since the Silver Knight has
Protection from Red and the Dragon is a red card that she should be
able to block it because the flying ability is on the red card.

The above is what the male has written, below is what the female has
written.

I'm just saying that since it's protection from red, that the
protection should be able to include everything on the red card. If
it was just from red, whoop de doo, the red doesn't do anything, its
the creature on the red card that does something. Its like a tv, if
you want an simile, the outside of the tv is just a casing for stuff,
but the inside of the tv is where all the action happens, without the
inside(the picture tubes, the sound speakers, whatever :-)) then the
outside would be there for nothing, it would do nothing. Again, I'm
saying that protection from red would do nothing unless it includees
the creature and everything that goes along with it too.

Below are the cards in question from the example above.

Kilnmouth Dragon
{5}{R}{R}
Creature -- Dragon
5/5
Amplify 3 (As this card comes into play, put three +1/+1 counters on
it for each Dragon card you reveal in your hand.)
Flying
{T}: Kilnmouth Dragon deals damage equal to the number of +1/+1
counters on it to target creature or player.

Silver Knight
{W}{W}
Creature -- Knight
2/2
First strike, protection from red

Thanks,
Michael and Jennifer.

[Nickel Carbonate]

Post by Michael Keith
I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)
Unfortunately she doesn't see the logic in the rules for creatures
with Protection from [quality] and flying creatures.
Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon. She says that if I
attack she can block with the Silver Knight because it has protection
from red. I have shown her the rules about flying and protection from
[quality]. But she still maintains that since the Silver Knight has
Protection from Red and the Dragon is a red card that she should be
able to block it because the flying ability is on the red card.
The above is what the male has written, below is what the female has
written.
I'm just saying that since it's protection from red, that the
protection should be able to include everything on the red card. If
it was just from red, whoop de doo, the red doesn't do anything, its
the creature on the red card that does something. Its like a tv, if
you want an simile, the outside of the tv is just a casing for stuff,
but the inside of the tv is where all the action happens, without the
inside(the picture tubes, the sound speakers, whatever :-)) then the
outside would be there for nothing, it would do nothing. Again, I'm
saying that protection from red would do nothing unless it includees
the creature and everything that goes along with it too.
Below are the cards in question from the example above.
Kilnmouth Dragon
{5}{R}{R}
Creature -- Dragon
5/5
Amplify 3 (As this card comes into play, put three +1/+1 counters on
it for each Dragon card you reveal in your hand.)
Flying
{T}: Kilnmouth Dragon deals damage equal to the number of +1/+1
counters on it to target creature or player.
Silver Knight
{W}{W}
Creature -- Knight
2/2
First strike, protection from red

I do hate do disappoint a lady, but these are the rules for flying and
protection from red:

502.4. Flying

502.4a Flying is an evasion ability.

502.4b A creature with flying can't be blocked by creatures without
flying. A creature with flying can block a creature with or without
flying. (See rule 309, "Declare Blockers Step.")

502.4c Multiple instances of flying on the same creature are redundant.


502.7. Protection

502.7a Protection is a static ability, written "Protection from
[quality]." This quality is usually a color (as in "protection from
black") but can be any characteristic value. If the quality is a type,
the protection applies to sources that are permanents with that type and
to any sources that aren't in play that are of that type.

502.7b A permanent with protection can't be targeted by spells with the
stated quality, can't be targeted by abilities from a source with the
stated quality, and can't be enchanted by enchantments that have the
stated quality. Such enchantments enchanting the permanent with
protection will be put into their owners' graveyards as a state-based
effect. (See rule 420, "State-Based Effects.") In addition, any damage
that would be dealt to it from sources having that quality is prevented.
If it attacks, it can't be blocked by creatures having that quality.

502.7c Multiple instances of protection from the same quality on the
same permanent are redundant.

Nothing in protection allows it to block creatures with flying. What
protection from <foo> does can be easily remembered with DEBT:

It can't be Damaged by <foo> sources
It can't be Enchanted by <foo> enchantments
It can't be Blocked by <foo> creatures
It can't be Targeted by <foo> spells or abilities from <foo> sources

Nothing here allows the Knight to block the Kilnmouth.

Post by Michael Keith
Thanks,
Michael and Jennifer.

[Ingo Warnke]

Post by Michael Keith
I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)
The above is what the male has written, below is what the female has
written.
I'm just saying that since it's protection from red, that the
protection should be able to include everything on the red card.

This is the basic misunderstanding. Protection from color (or some other
property) does *not* mean that the protected card is totally immune to
everything of that color. The rulebook gives it 4 specific consequences
that have been outlined in another reply (DEBT-acronym). Those 4
consequences do *not* include "Can block a creature of that color
regardless of other rules." or "Ignore any evasion abilities on creatures
with that color."

[David DeLaney]

Post by Michael Keith
I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)
Unfortunately she doesn't see the logic in the rules for creatures
with Protection from [quality] and flying creatures.

There doesn't have to be "real world logic"; it's Magic, after all.

There is a consistent _internal_ logic.

Post by Michael Keith
Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon.

Right.

Post by Michael Keith
She says that if I
attack she can block with the Silver Knight because it has protection
from red.

Er, no. The Silver Knight does not have flying. "Flying" means "this
can only be blocked by creatures with flying" (yes, it's recursive,
don't worry about that part). The Silver Knight has pro-Red; that means
that nothing the Dragon does which tries to a) damage, b) enchant, c)
block, or d) target the Knight will affect the Knight. Flying doesn't
do any of these four; the Knight's proRed in no way manages to negate
the fact that the Dragon _does have flying_, so is unblockable by a
nonflying Knight.

ProRed is in no way "ignores all spells, abilities, effects, etc., that
are associated with something red". It does four specific things, and
ONLY does those things. A red creature having flying isn't doing anything
that proRed can help against.

Post by Michael Keith
I have shown her the rules about flying and protection from
[quality]. But she still maintains that since the Silver Knight has
Protection from Red and the Dragon is a red card that she should be
able to block it because the flying ability is on the red card.

Nope. As above, "proRed" does NOT mean _anything_ like "is immune to
stuff red things try to do". It does four specific things, enumerated
in the rules; that's all it does, and all it CAN do.

Post by Michael Keith
I'm just saying that since it's protection from red, that the
protection should be able to include everything on the red card.

The rules say quite otherwise:

502.7. Protection

502.7a Protection is a static ability, written "Protection from [quality]".
This quality is usually a color (as in "protection from black") but can be any
characteristic value. If the quality is a type, the protection applies to
sources that are permanents with that type and to any sources that aren't in
play that are of that type.

502.7b A permanent with protection can't be targeted by spells with the stated
quality, can't be targeted by abilities from a source with the stated quality,
and can't be enchanted by enchantments that have the stated quality. Such
enchantments enchanting the permanent with protection will be put into their
owners' graveyards as a state-based effect. (See rule 420, "State-Based
Effects".) In addition, any damage that would be dealt to it from sources
having that quality is prevented. If it attacks, it can't be blocked by
creatures having that quality.

502.7c Multiple instances of protection from the same quality on the same
permanent are redundant.

That's all the rules that define it. 502.7b lists the four things it does:
it helps against Damage, Enchanting, Blocking, and Targetting, and that's
all. The Dragon can't block the Knight, because the Knight has proRed and
can't be blocked BY red creatures. But the Knight can't block the Dragon,
because the Dragon has Flying, can't be blocked by nonFlying creatures,
_and nothing proRed does stops this from working normally_. Flying does
not try to damage, enchant, block, or target the Knight, so isn't stopped
from working by proRed.

Post by Michael Keith
If it was just from red, whoop de doo, the red doesn't do anything, its
the creature on the red card that does something. Its like a tv, if
you want an simile, the outside of the tv is just a casing for stuff,
but the inside of the tv is where all the action happens, without the
inside(the picture tubes, the sound speakers, whatever :-)) then the
outside would be there for nothing, it would do nothing. Again, I'm
saying that protection from red would do nothing unless it includees
the creature and everything that goes along with it too.

This is a lovely idea, but has nothing to do with how Magic actually works,
alas. The rules are as above, and the do clearly state what they do...

The rulebook can be found, if you're curious about other stuff in it, at
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer . There is
a "beginner's rulebook" at
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/newplayer , the one
that comes with the 7E Gift Box/starter set, but it a) isn't complete
and b) does simplify some things to the point where they're actually not
fully correct.

It is true that the KDragon's activated -ability- can't pick the Silver
Knight as a _target_, because proRed does stop targetting... but that
has nothing to do with whether, when the Dragon is -attacking-, the
Knight could _block_ it. An ability is not an attack, and vice versa.

Dave

[Keith Piddington]

David DeLaney (***@gatekeeper.vic.com) wrote:
: On 12 Jul 2003 01:09:22 -0700, Michael Keith <***@attbi.com> wrote:
: >I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
: >me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
: >(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)
: >
: >Unfortunately she doesn't see the logic in the rules for creatures
: >with Protection from [quality] and flying creatures.

: There doesn't have to be "real world logic"; it's Magic, after all.

True... ::chuckle:: ...but in this case a more realistic example might
help explain...

: >Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
: >counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon.

: > She says that if I
: >attack she can block with the Silver Knight because it has protection
: >from red.

: Er, no. The Silver Knight does not have flying.

So think of it this way: the Knight, in all its glorious armour that red
can't touch, stands on the ground and watches, helpless, while this
enormous red Dragon flies past, way over his head and out of his reach.

Now, if somehow the Knight could get up in the air ("gain flying"), then
it *could* get in the Dragon's way ("block") and come to no harm in the
process ("take no damage")...but to get the Knight airborne requires
external assistance as the Knight can't do it himself.

Also, if the Dragon decides to do anything to the Knight directly ("target
the Knight with an ability"), the Knight's protection will automatically
kick in, and he will come to no harm at all.

I hope this not-very-technical explanation helps clarify things for you.


Keith

[Chris Mattern]

Post by Michael Keith
I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)
Unfortunately she doesn't see the logic in the rules for creatures
with Protection from [quality] and flying creatures.
Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon. She says that if I
attack she can block with the Silver Knight because it has protection
from red. I have shown her the rules about flying and protection from
[quality]. But she still maintains that since the Silver Knight has
Protection from Red and the Dragon is a red card that she should be
able to block it because the flying ability is on the red card.
The above is what the male has written, below is what the female has
written.
I'm just saying that since it's protection from red, that the
protection should be able to include everything on the red card.

I'm sorry, it doesn't. It never has. Protection from <foo> has only
done the four things Michael showed you in the rules ever since
Revised. It doesn't enable you to block <foo> things if you couldn't
before, just like it doesn't stop red effects that destroy and don't
target from killing it--your Silver Knight will die to your opponent's
Obliterate.

Post by Michael Keith
If
it was just from red, whoop de doo, the red doesn't do anything, its
the creature on the red card that does something. Its like a tv, if
you want an simile, the outside of the tv is just a casing for stuff,
but the inside of the tv is where all the action happens, without the
inside(the picture tubes, the sound speakers, whatever :-)) then the
outside would be there for nothing, it would do nothing. Again, I'm
saying that protection from red would do nothing unless it includees
the creature and everything that goes along with it too.

I'm not sure I understand this. Protection from red is and has always been
limited to what it specifically provides for; it has never covered "everything"
red cards could do. Protection from red includes four things.
Damage from red sources is prevented, Enchantments that are red can't
enchant it, red creatures can't block it, and red effects can't target it.
There is nothing in protection from red that makes it able to block
red creatures if it otherwise can't. It certainly *does* do some things.
If you attack with the Silver Knight, the Kilnmouth can't block it.
Your opponent can't use the Kilnmouth's ability to kill the Silver Knight,
because the Kilnmouth can't target it. If you are able to use an
effect to give the Knight flying, it can not only block the Kilnmouth
but survive the experience, since all the Kilnmouth's combat damage will
be prevented (but since it will only inflict two damage on the Kilnmouth,
it won't kill the Dragon, either). But the Knight *cannot* block the
Kilnmouth unless it is given the ability to block flying creatures in
some fashion, since by itself it cannot do so.

Post by Michael Keith
Below are the cards in question from the example above.
Kilnmouth Dragon
{5}{R}{R}
Creature -- Dragon
5/5
Amplify 3 (As this card comes into play, put three +1/+1 counters on
it for each Dragon card you reveal in your hand.)
Flying
{T}: Kilnmouth Dragon deals damage equal to the number of +1/+1
counters on it to target creature or player.
Silver Knight
{W}{W}
Creature -- Knight
2/2
First strike, protection from red

Chris Mattern

[David DeLaney]

Post by Chris Mattern

Post by Michael Keith
I'm just saying that since it's protection from red, that the
protection should be able to include everything on the red card.

I'm sorry, it doesn't.

Right, but...

Post by Chris Mattern
It never has.

...nitpick: in the -very first- Magic rules, Alpha/Beta/Unlimited, it tried
to. This was quickly seen, even back then, to Not Work, and got changed for
Revised.

Post by Chris Mattern
Protection from <foo> has only
done the four things Michael showed you in the rules ever since Revised.

Right. (In some senses the Unlimited rules stand, in part, as a Horrible
Example we can learn from. They did get a great deal of stuff okay, and
much of it is recognizable even today, but...)

Post by Chris Mattern
I'm not sure I understand this. Protection from red is and has always been
limited to what it specifically provides for; it has never covered "everything"
red cards could do.

Again, be careful of absolutes here. At one time it did, but never has again.

Post by Chris Mattern
Protection from red includes four things.

[snip]

Dave

[Massimo Sabbadini]

Post by Michael Keith
Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon. She says that if I
attack she can block with the Silver Knight because it has protection
from red. I have shown her the rules about flying and protection from
[quality]. But she still maintains that since the Silver Knight has
Protection from Red and the Dragon is a red card that she should be
able to block it because the flying ability is on the red card.

Well, just ask to your girlfriend how this valorous knight is supposed
to block a giant dragon that is flying 100 meters over his head,
aiming to the castle of his master...

[Mark Landin]

Post by Michael Keith
I am posting this under duress as my fiance will not play Magic with
me until I post this to the newsgroups and prove her right or wrong.
(Keep in mind that this woman is a very strong willed beginner.)
Unfortunately she doesn't see the logic in the rules for creatures
with Protection from [quality] and flying creatures.
Here is the play... I have a Kilnmouth Dragon that has nine +1/+1
counters on it, so it's a 14/14 flying red Dragon.

Stop right there. Shame on you for attacking a beginner with a 14/14
flier!