Rain of Gore in 2HG

[Acherontia Atropos]

Rain of Gore
Enchantment
If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that
player loses that much life instead.

If a player plays a spell/ability like Stream of Life (Target player
gains X life) on his teammate, does Rain of Gore replace its effect?
See also Transcendence, Well of Lost Dreams...

Thanks in advance,
Andrea Murru
L2 - Italy

[Gareth Pye]

I'm not sure, I am sure that it doesn't work for Transcendence and that
Well of Lost dreams will never trigger as long as Rain of Gore is in play

As to the original question, I'm not sure what happens, its a pretty
good question.

Post by Acherontia Atropos
Rain of Gore
Enchantment
If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that
player loses that much life instead.
If a player plays a spell/ability like Stream of Life (Target player
gains X life) on his teammate, does Rain of Gore replace its effect?
See also Transcendence, Well of Lost Dreams...
Thanks in advance,
Andrea Murru
L2 - Italy

[Acherontia Atropos]

Post by Gareth Pye
I'm not sure, I am sure that it doesn't work for Transcendence and that
Well of Lost dreams will never trigger as long as Rain of Gore is in play

Actually, I mentioned them (there's also False Cure, and some other I
can't remember) just because, just Rain of Gore, they care if their
controller gains life, while the "gain life" affect his/her teammate.

[Peter Cooper Jr.]

Post by Acherontia Atropos
Rain of Gore
Enchantment
If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that
player loses that much life instead.
If a player plays a spell/ability like Stream of Life (Target player
gains X life) on his teammate, does Rain of Gore replace its effect?

No. His teammate is not the controller of the spell. His teammate
would gain the life, and (in a 2HG game, which I assume is what you're
referring to), would thereby cause the team to gain life.

Post by Acherontia Atropos
See also Transcendence,

Transcendence with Rain of Gore is a good way to cause a draw. (Note
that Transcendence's ability is triggered, not a replacement like Rain
of Gore's.) See the third question of John Carter's Saturday School of
April 29 <http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/jc90>.

Post by Acherontia Atropos
Well of Lost Dreams...

Well of Lost Dreams is also triggered, and if a spell or ability's
controller has one in play and that spell or ability would cause its
controller to gain life, the life-gaining gets replaced with Rain of
Gore's ability, and Well of Lost Dreams doesn't trigger.

Note that both Transcendence and Well of Lost Dreams trigger just for
their controller, regardless of who controls the spell or ability
causing the life gain. Rain of Gore is sort of the opposite: it
affects all players, but only if the spell or ability causes its
controller to gain life.

And in a team game, you are not your teammate.

[David DeLaney]

Rain of Gore >Enchantment
If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that
player loses that much life instead.

Replacement effect.

If a player plays a spell/ability like Stream of Life (Target player
gains X life) on his teammate, does Rain of Gore replace its effect?

Does his teammate control the ability? No, the player does. Rain of Gore
only affects spells or abilities which are granting life to the controller
of the spell or ability. Even 2-Headed Giant doesn't, I believe, make -all-
the players on a team -all- be the controller of a spell or ability that _one_
of them played.

See also Transcendence,

Your Rain of Gore will make your Transcendence work like it said 'Whenever you
lose life, you lose 2 more life for each life you lost'. Which -does- turn into
an unbounded loop (unlike Transcendence/False Cure, whose loop runs into
Transcendence's second ability fairly quick and then may or may not become
unbounded on top of that); if one or the other isn't gotten rid of in
response to one of the Transcendence abilities, the game draws. (You want
to get rid of the Rain of Gore, really; if you get rid of the Transcendence
you usually lose right after doing so, since you're usually at negative life
total by this point...)

Not a recommended combo, in other words.

Well of Lost Dreams...

Your Well of Lost Dreams can't trigger off spells or abilities you control if
you also control Rain of Gore, since the Rain of Gore replaces the life gain.
(It can trigger just fine off -opponent's- spell or ability making you gain
life; Rain of Gore doesn't replace those.)

Dave

[Acherontia Atropos]

Sorry, my original post was goofy, I wasn't asking for the interaction
between Rain of Gore and Transcendence / Well...
The short question is: if a player gains/lose life in 2HG, this fact
affects his/her teammate's shared life total too. Does this matter for
Rain of Gore, Transcendence, etc...?

From your answers, I can assume "no". Thanks :)

Andrea Murru
L2 - Italy

[David DeLaney]

Post by Acherontia Atropos
Sorry, my original post was goofy, I wasn't asking for the interaction
between Rain of Gore and Transcendence / Well...
The short question is: if a player gains/lose life in 2HG, this fact
affects his/her teammate's shared life total too. Does this matter for
Rain of Gore, Transcendence, etc...?

From your answers, I can assume "no". Thanks :)

Correct as far as I can tell. If it helps, it affects the -team's- life total,
and in a way the separate life _totals_ don't really exist - damage, loss of
life, and life gain can happen to the separate players, but change the -team's-
life total. So, if you follow that, if A gains life, that raises the team's
life total; it doesn't raise B's ... . A and B don't have separated-out life
totals. 606.9a says what to do if something asks for one of their life totals
anyway, as does 606.9b,c for setting life totals, but neither of those -gives-
A and B separate life totals, they just say what to do if asked about these
missing numbers...

So "no", yes...

Dave

[Zoe Stephenson]

Acherontia Atropos <***@tiscali.it> sent:

Rain of Gore {B}{R} Enchantment
/ If a spell or ability would cause its controller to gain life, that
player loses that much life instead.

Post by Acherontia Atropos
If a player plays a spell/ability like Stream of Life (Target player
gains X life) on his teammate, does Rain of Gore replace its effect?

[in two-headed giant, for this to make sense]

No. The relevant rules is:

606.9. Damage, loss of life, and gaining life happens to each player
individually. The result is applied to the team's shared life total.

I read the word 'cause' on Rain of Gore in a very narrow way - the
effect has to actually say that it's adjusting your life total (e.g.
'You gain 3 life' on Reviving Dose, or 'Target player gains 3 life'
targeting yourself). It doesn't get to look beyond that to see that
the resulting life-gain is applied to a life total that's shared by the
controller of the Stream of Life.

Post by Acherontia Atropos
See also Transcendence, Well of Lost Dreams...

Transcendence {3}{W}{W}{W} Enchantment
/ You dont lose the game for having 0 or less life.
/ When you have 20 or more life, you lose the game.
/ Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost.

Transcendence and Rain of Gore is a series of repeated triggers, and
you'll need to destroy at least one of those enchantments to stop the
cycle.

Transcendence in two-headed giant is quite simple to work out:

Two-headed giant rules say:

606.8b Players win and lose the game only as a team, not as
individuals. If either player on a team loses the game, the team
loses the game. If either player on a team wins the game, the entire
team wins the game. If an effect would prevent a player from winning
the game, that player's team can't win the game. If an effect would
prevent a player from losing the game, that player's team can't lose
the game.

606.9a If an effect needs to know the value of an individual player's
life total, that effect uses the team's life total divided by two,
rounded up, instead.

So, any time the team's life total is 0 or less, that would normally
cause that team to lose; the first ability on Transcendence stops that
from happening.

If the team's life total is at 39 or more, then the players will have
20 life apiece, and the second ability from Transcendence applies,
causing the team to lose the game.

The third ability triggers whenever the player controlling the
Transcendence loses life, and causes that player to gain twice as
much life; both the loss and the gain get applied to the team life
total when they happen.

Well of Lost Dreams {4} Artifact
/ Whenever you gain life, you may pay {X}, where X is less than or
equal to the amount of life you gained. If you do, draw X cards.

Well of Lost Dreams in two-headed giant is quite simple; if the spell
or ability is giving life to the controller of Well of Lost Dreams,
it triggers. If it's only giving life to the team-mate, it doesn't
trigger.