Karmic Justice

[phil]

I played an enchantment deck last sunday and got into play Karmic
Justice as well as pacifism, kirtar's desire, testament of faith and a
few other nice enchantments. My opponent was playing a cleric desk and
played nova cleric next round he was going to sacrifice it to destroy
all enchantments, but I pointed out the effect that Karmic Justice
would have.
First of all he tried to say that the nova cleric was a universal
effect therefore it was not targeting any enchantment...I argued that
the card says nothing about target or protecion.
He was then waiting until a disenchant came but before doing so he
killed a creature of mine with an enchantment on it. here comes the
other problem he does not think that I should get to destroy 2
permenants because his spell only destroyed the creature not the
spell.
I allowed him this but said I would check on all points.
When he finally go a disenchant and destroyed the Karmic Justice there
was then some debate as to whether the Karmic justice would take
effect since he was destroying it. I held out and said the effect
still stood.


Could you please advise on the 3 points of play



Thanks

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by phil
I played an enchantment deck last sunday and got into play Karmic
Justice as well as pacifism, kirtar's desire, testament of faith and a
few other nice enchantments. My opponent was playing a cleric desk and
played nova cleric next round he was going to sacrifice it to destroy
all enchantments, but I pointed out the effect that Karmic Justice
would have.

Karmic Justice
{2}{W}
Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls destroys a noncreature
permanent you control, you may destroy target permanent that opponent
controls.

Post by phil
First of all he tried to say that the nova cleric was a universal
effect therefore it was not targeting any enchantment...I argued that
the card says nothing about target or protecion.

Yes, exactly.

Post by phil
He was then waiting until a disenchant came but before doing so he
killed a creature of mine with an enchantment on it. here comes the
other problem he does not think that I should get to destroy 2
permenants because his spell only destroyed the creature not the
spell.
I allowed him this but said I would check on all points.

He was right. D'Angelo's ruling file includes:

Karmic Justice will not trigger if an opponent's spell or ability causes
your permanent to be destroyed indirectly. For example, if the spell
caused an ability you control to trigger, and thereby destroy your
permanent. [D'Angelo 2002/04/20]

The local enchantment on your creature was destroyed by rule 420.5d.
Karmic Justice doesn't see destruction caused by a rule.

420.5d A local enchantment that enchants an illegal or nonexistent
permanent is put into its owner's graveyard.

And, um, why did you think that you should get to destroy 2 permanents?
What was the other noncreature permanent his spell destroyed?

Post by phil
When he finally go a disenchant and destroyed the Karmic Justice there
was then some debate as to whether the Karmic justice would take
effect since he was destroying it. I held out and said the effect
still stood.

You were right. D'Angelo's ruling file includes this:

If an opponent destroys Karmic Justice, it will trigger on its own
destruction. [Jordan 2001/10/14]

This derives from rule 410.10d:

410.10d Abilities that trigger on one or more permanents leaving play, or
on a player losing control of a permanent, must be treated specially
because the permanent with the ability may no longer be in play after the
event. The game has to "look back in time" to determine what triggered.
Each time an event removes from play or changes who controls one or more
permanents, all the permanents in play just before the event (with
continuous effects that existed at that time) are checked for trigger
events that match what just left play or changed control.
Example: Two creatures are in play along with an artifact that has the
ability "Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, you gain 1
life." Someone plays a spell that destroys all artifacts, creatures, and
enchantments. The artifact's ability triggers twice, even though the
artifact goes to its owner's graveyard at the same time as the creatures.

[Peter]

Post by phil
Karmic Justice
{2}{W}
Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls destroys a noncreature
permanent you control, you may destroy target permanent that opponent
controls.

Post by phil
He was then waiting until a disenchant came but before doing so he
killed a creature of mine with an enchantment on it. here comes the
other problem he does not think that I should get to destroy 2
permenants because his spell only destroyed the creature not the
spell.
I allowed him this but said I would check on all points.

Karmic Justice will not trigger if an opponent's spell or ability causes
your permanent to be destroyed indirectly. For example, if the spell
caused an ability you control to trigger, and thereby destroy your
permanent. [D'Angelo 2002/04/20]
The local enchantment on your creature was destroyed by rule 420.5d.
Karmic Justice doesn't see destruction caused by a rule.
420.5d A local enchantment that enchants an illegal or nonexistent
permanent is put into its owner's graveyard.

More specifically in the rules, the state-based effect does not
actually *destroy* the enchantment. It merely moves it to the
graveyard. For reference, check the wording for creatures with 0
toughness and lethal damage:

***
420.5b A creature with toughness 0 or less is put into its owner's
graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.
420.5c A creature with lethal damage, but greater than 0 toughness is
destroyed. Lethal damage is an amount of damage greater than or equal
to a creature's toughness. Regeneration does replace this event.
***

Post by phil
And, um, why did you think that you should get to destroy 2 permanents?
What was the other noncreature permanent his spell destroyed?

Yeah, I noticed this too.
Even if it were somehow an Enchantment-Creature (ie: Opalescence),
it's still a Creature, and therefore not a non-Creature.

Peter

[Daniel W. Johnson]

Post by Peter
More specifically in the rules, the state-based effect does not
actually *destroy* the enchantment. It merely moves it to the
graveyard.

Yes. Oops. Another reason for Karmic Justice to ignore that event.

[Arkady Zilberberg]

Hello, phil!
You wrote on Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:18:03 GMT:

p> I played an enchantment deck last sunday and got into play Karmic
p> Justice as well as pacifism, kirtar's desire, testament of faith
p> and a
p> few other nice enchantments. My opponent was playing a cleric
p> desk and
p> played nova cleric next round he was going to sacrifice it to
p> destroy
p> all enchantments, but I pointed out the effect that Karmic
p> Justice
p> would have.
p> First of all he tried to say that the nova cleric was a universal
p> effect therefore it was not targeting any enchantment...I argued
p> that
p> the card says nothing about target or protecion.
p> He was then waiting until a disenchant came but before doing so
p> he
p> killed a creature of mine with an enchantment on it. here comes
p> the
p> other problem he does not think that I should get to destroy 2
p> permenants because his spell only destroyed the creature not the
p> spell.
p> I allowed him this but said I would check on all points.
p> When he finally go a disenchant and destroyed the Karmic Justice
p> there
p> was then some debate as to whether the Karmic justice would take
p> effect since he was destroying it. I held out and said the effect
p> still stood.

First, Oracle text of the cards in question:

Nova Cleric
{W}
Creature -- Cleric
1/2
{2}{W}, {T}, Sacrifice Nova Cleric: Destroy all enchantments.

Karmic Justice
{2}{W}
Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls destroys a noncreature
permanent you control, you may destroy target permanent that opponent
controls.

Let's see:
1. Nova Cleric is controlled by your opponent, so its ability is
controlled by your opponent as well. If he used Nova Cleric's ability
to destroy all enchantments, Karmic Justice would trigger once for every
your enchantment being destroyed (including itself) before going to the
graveyard (this is 'leaves play' triggered ability, which is handled
differently than other TAs - see rule 410.10d). You would get that many
triggered abilities on the stack, each reading 'you may destroy target
permanent that opponent controls'. If you controlled two Karmic
Justices, each would trigger for each destroyed enchantment, giving you
twice as many possibilities to destroy your opponent's permanents.
2. When your opponent kills your enchanted creature, Karmic Justice does
not trigger - only *noncreature* permanents trigger it (see the card's
text). Your local enchantment is destroyed not by your opponent, but by
the game itself as a state-based effect (rule 420.5d). Nobody controls
state-based effects - this is a game's action. So, in this case, you
would not get to destroy any of his permanents.
3. When he Disenchants your Karmic Justice, it *does* trigger - again,
rule 410.10d is your friend.

Regards,
Arkady.

[David DeLaney]

Post by phil
I played an enchantment deck last sunday and got into play Karmic
Justice as well as pacifism, kirtar's desire, testament of faith and a
few other nice enchantments. My opponent was playing a cleric desk and
played nova cleric next round he was going to sacrifice it to destroy
all enchantments, but I pointed out the effect that Karmic Justice
would have.
First of all he tried to say that the nova cleric was a universal
effect therefore it was not targeting any enchantment...I argued that
the card says nothing about target or protecion.

Karmic Justice 2W Enchantment
Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls destroys a noncreature
permanent you control, you may destroy target permanent that opponent controls.

Quite correct. The Nova Cleric's ability destroying all enchantments would
trigger KJ once for each noncreature enchantment, including itself, that got
destroyed this way, which you controlled. (It won't trigger off the effect
destroying his enchantments.)

Post by phil
He was then waiting until a disenchant came but before doing so he
killed a creature of mine with an enchantment on it. here comes the
other problem he does not think that I should get to destroy 2
permenants because his spell only destroyed the creature not the
spell.

He's right, actually. The KJ can't trigger at ALL off of creatures. No
matter what kills them. And if the spell did not also destroy the
enchantment on it, you know what did? The rules did. Specifically, a
state-based effect (420.5d) puts it into the graveyard. This does not
'destroy' the enchantment, so regenerating it won't help... and things
that trigger off of it being destroyed won't trigger. (Also, the rules
do this to it, not the effect of the spell or ability directly, so again
it doesn't qualify to trigger KJ.)

Post by phil
I allowed him this but said I would check on all points.
When he finally go a disenchant and destroyed the Karmic Justice there
was then some debate as to whether the Karmic justice would take
effect since he was destroying it. I held out and said the effect
still stood.

Yes. It will trigger just fine off itself being destroyed, see 410.10d . You
check the game state just BEFORE the KJ leaves play, to see what triggers...
and at that time there is a KJ in play with an ability that says it
triggers off of this event.

Post by phil
Could you please advise on the 3 points of play

Nova Cleric: your KJ triggers once for each enchantment of yours its
effect destroys, if it's his Cleric.

Killing a creature that has enchantments on it: KJ won't trigger for the
enchantments, they're not being destroyed and aren't being affected by a
spell or ability, but by The Rules. And KJ can't trigger off of creatures.

Destroying KJ itself: KJ will trigger, if an opponent's spell or ability
destroyed it.

Dave